ZiggyStardust Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 For some reason I cant post on the other board so I will post here. I'm doing an essay on how the 'gothic' genre has changed over the years, I need to select 4 texts and explain. SO far the two texts I have picked are Frankenstein and Edward Scissor Hands. I'm looking for a song and a poem to have 4 different texts. For the songs the shortlist has: 1999 - Prince (listen to the lyrics than you may see the 'gothic' in it. Enter Sandman - Metallica. Before you reccomend me any songs, please I dont want any from gothic bands, because the lyrics are meaningless and impossible to analyse. And if you can, can you please elaborate on the two texts I have mentioned previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible_r Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Before you reccomend me any songs, please I dont want any from gothic bands, because the lyrics are meaningless and impossible to analyse. i think you might be over-generalising a bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katie_sane Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Hello Ziggy great name!! Welcome to songfacts, it is good to see another Aussie on the boards!! Okay, gothic songs. How do you define gothic? What has a song got to have to be classed as gothic? Do you mean songs with dark lyrics?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Before you reccomend me any songs, please I dont want any from gothic bands, because the lyrics are meaningless and impossible to analyse. I think you'll find that the best way to talk about how gothic genre has changed, is to examine as much as you can, not just to say 'gothic lyrics' are meaningless, you obviously haven't listened to alot of this music? IMO the lyrics by particular bands in the gothic genre have huge meaning. For example, if you looked into the Sisters Of Mercy, you would find that the majority of their songs are about human suffering through wars etc. They have huge meaning, you just have to dig below the surface to find it. Sites like 1959 and all that... can help in the analysis of SoM lyrics. Are you considering Bauhaus, The Cure, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggsUK Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 I would have thought a chronology of your own, great Mr Cave could be a starting point. Another could be the metamorphosis of the Southern Death Cult from a darkly gothic band to stadium rockers in the bandana style. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earth-Angel Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Before you reccomend me any songs, please I dont want any from gothic bands, because the lyrics are meaningless and impossible to analyse How are you doing a project on "gothic" music without analysing "gothic" bands. Like Foxy recommended Sisters of Mercy - none of their lyrics are "meaningless" or impossible to analyse, they sometimes just require some research or deeper thought. Don't give up! Maybe you don't like that style of music, but that is no reason to generalise and say it is meaningless. Try something like Bauhaus, or type O negative, or Blind Guardian. Alot of the songs have political or religious themes or are just clandestine and "dark". Double Dare I dare you, to be real To touch a flickering flame The pangs of dark delight Don't cower in night fright Don't back away just yet From destinations set I dare you to be proud To dare to shout aloud For convictions that you feel Like sound from bells to peal I dare you to speak of your despise For bureaucracy, hypocrisy...all liars I dare I dare I dare...you...you "Goth" lyrics are no more complex or easy to understand as any other song type, alot of other styles need you to read into the meaning, just browse through the Q&A forum and you will see how many songs require study and analysis before they are somewhat understood. Good luck with your project, please post your notes here so we can learn a little too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible_r Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 what about the progression of "classic goth" (in my mind like sisters of mercy) to darkwave and new dark wave (like the cure, nick cave, the cult) to industrial? here are some links: bands more bands even more bands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyguitar Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 I've never really understood how the Cure ended up being a goth band... a crackingly good rock/pop band with some moody bits on the albums (and the first couple of singles) but I just can't see the Goth bit...a great essay would conclusively demonstrate how Friday I'm in Love, Love Cats and Hot Hot Hot are archetypal Goth tunes...that I'd like to read They are to Goth what Costello, Squeeze and the Police were to Punk....JMHO :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible_r Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 ok so they are not typical of goth music, especially if all you can think of are their big hits! most of their stuff is very dark and claustophobic, and their music is typical of the new dark wave movement of the 80s (which is always included as goth music) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyguitar Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 The Cure were created in Crawley, Sussex (England), in 1978 as a mix of psychedelic beat and post-punk tradition. Robert Smith (*1959), Laurence Tolhurst (*1959) and bassist Michael Dempsey came together, label owner Chris Perry took them to the studio where the Cure recorded their debut single Killing An Arab (1979). Four weeks later this was followed by their album Three Imaginary Boys. After another few singles and a tour, Dempsey left the group. He was replaced by Simon Gallup (, keyboard-player Mathieu Hartley also joined them. The quartet had a success in 1980 with their album 17 Seconds (UK number 20). Without Hartley, they published the album Faith (UK number 7) in 1981. They continued on their road to success with a mix of punk and pop in the mid-80s. Porl Thompson replaced Thornhally (in 1983, . In 1985, Gallup, who had left the band in 1982, rejoined the Cure. They had one success after another up to the early 1990s. Psychedelic beat and post-punk pop...methinks....not Goth :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJonSurfer Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 I just want to thank Australia for giving us Katie Sane (with the Aladdin Sane cover) and now Ziggy Stardust. I know this provided little or no useful information, but, I wanted to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyguitar Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 and I defend with my life your right to say it :: :guitar: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible_r Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Psychedelic beat and post-punk pop...methinks....not Goth :: i am terrible at defining genres, but i think they are dark wave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katie_sane Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Thankyou RonJon Newsman! I don't class Metallica as gothic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyguitar Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 I daren't say what I class them as.... :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiggyStardust Posted May 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I know Metallica aren't gothic, but I can see the 'gothic' in 'Enter Sandman'. Still, im clueless and the essay is due soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I'd say if you wanna go with really early goth rock, go with some Doors (the imagery in 'Riders on the storm' is pretty _____in' dark) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odiferousglue Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hmm...Goth. How about Joy Division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Coz Posted May 31, 2005 Report Share Posted May 31, 2005 Ok, Gothic music is NOT meaningless. The late 70s and early 80s are full of competent and capable bands. Goth developped from post-punk. Bands like Joy Division, Bauhaus and Incubus Succubus. Echoey, dark and brooding. Plus the stories behind the bands are always interesting. As for the Cure. I don't think they're goth, I saw Dark Wave thrown out there, thats a good way to classify them. Honestly though, they were just a post-punk band that goth fans latched onto. I think it mostly has to do with the image and sound of Robert Smith. But if you want proof of their goth leanings check out "Pornography" an epic album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 As for the Cure. I don't think they're goth, I saw Dark Wave thrown out there, thats a good way to classify them. Honestly though, they were just a post-punk band that goth fans latched onto. I think it mostly has to do with the image and sound of Robert Smith. Sisters Of Mercy, anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edna Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Come on, JuanCa, I´m sure you know more than the rest of us about that kind of sound... Nick Cave would be goth? I always found the Cure so very pop... I like them very much. Joy Division, New Order, Bauhaus seem to me very much obscure than Robert Smith... even iggy pop has many obscure songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Come on, JuanCa, I´m sure you know more than the rest of us about that kind of sound... Nick Cave would be goth? I always found the Cure so very pop... I like them very much. Joy Division, New Order, Bauhaus seem to me very much obscure than Robert Smith... even iggy pop has many obscure songs. Well, for one, I don't think of Gothic as a "lifestyle," but, rather, as just a "style" - whether it be architecture, writing, fashion, and modern music. I don't know if obscurity has anything to do with it either, but since it is a subcultural phenomena it's not surprising a lot of it doesn't get recognition. The Cure is about as "goth" as Depeche Mode. Meaning, yeah, a lotta people who enjoy gothic music will latch on to them because they share some qualities in their craft, but they're not according-to-Hoyle goth bands. I'm thinking Christian Death/Rozz Williams, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, Nick Cave And The Bad Seeds, The Virgin Prunes, March Of Violets, Siouxsie And The Banshees, early Tuxedomoon (pre-Holy Wars), Clan Of Xymox, that sort of thing. Some of it could also called "Death Rock". At least, that's what I remember the kids in my hs calling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible_r Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 the cure, as i said before, as generally classified as new dark wave, and so are depeche mode. how are siouxie and the banshees goth then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 the cure, as i said before, as generally classified as new dark wave, and so are depeche mode. how are siouxie and the banshees goth then? Martin L. Gore was quoted as saying in the 80s they were into making mainstream Pop music. I dunno why Siouxsie would be more goth. We should get our measuring sticks for this :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible_r Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 i'm having a deja-vu, haven't we had this exact discussion before? and you gave me the same quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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