MuzikTyme Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I understand what you're saying. You understand the concept of now? OK, stand up, jump up and down, move your arms like a skeleton, recite the big mac jingle and whistle Dixie out of your butt. If you did all of this, tell me that it was God's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windy1 Posted October 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Chris you have very pro Bush and anti Michael Moore ideas. when you live a little longer you will see that nothing is as black and white as you seem to think. I don't believe that Bush has done a terrible job. I don't know that Kerry would do a terrible job. What I was talking about is the arab- oil- bush connection, which isn't all lies, if it were, then there would be lawsuits flying fast and furious. I have felt from the beginning before I knew any of these things that a large part of the war was oil related. I also believe that there is much more to this election than just the war. There are economy, health, jobs, and many more social issues at stake. As far as the war goes, we have to support what our troops are doing. However Bush says we will not quit until there is a clear winner. This sounds like Johnson and Nixon during Vietnam. Guess what? We eventually quit, and there was no clear winner. But there were a lot of losers, and I happen to know many of them. You are too young to know this except by reading about it. All I'm saying is I am as torn now as I was then, and don't see any way out. I don't mean to sound condescending, It's just becoming a much cloudier issue than anyone thought it would become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielj Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 You have ZERO conception of free will. Man makes the choice. For the one thousandth time, it does not matter if God knows before, presently, or after the fact. We are not determined nor are our personal, private decisions forced. Our destinies are already known by the Almighty, yes. But they are fulfilled by OUR hand, not His. That is questionable, and I think I partly disagree. Man makes the choice in the end i suppose, but I do believe God guides us into making the right decision. Another point, is that it is He who gives us our conscience (sp?) before we are born. So saying that, it is him who makes some decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTyme Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Let me try a different approach: Conscience is a good point and I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, we all have a conscience. God's own image of what is right I believe is our conscience. I believe everyone knows when they are doing wrong. But does everyone let their conscience be their guide? Some people will give back a lost wallet and some people won't. I can assure you, the people that keep the wallet know the right thing is to give it back but they keep it anyway. It's their choice and their decision, not God's. XXX has an interesting concept but he doesn't understand the difference of plan and execution. I can plan to go out today, re-shingle my roof, paint my living room, take my kids for ice cream and anything else. But, in my heart I know I'm not going out in the rain and get on a roof. I can plan anything I can think of but it doesn't mean I'm going to do it. God's plan is for everyone to do what is right but he gives us free will to make the decisions on our own. He does know the outcome of our choices but our choices are made by us, not God. I don't know of any other way that I can explain the simple fact that we have the choice to either steal or give back. God doesn't make us do anything. He doesn't make XXX believe in free will even though XXX has free will. God knows who's gonna win the world series but he doesn't puppeteer the players around the field. The losing team is doomed to lose but it's their own fault, not God's. My theory is that if one doesn't believe in a creator then they simply don't have the insight or common sense to understand free will or little else. I don't expect you to understand that we are not programmed robots that have to do a predetermined act. XXX points out that since God knows everything that we are stuck to His will. He's wrong, he keeps pulling the same card and will probably never understand the fact that he's convinced himself of a flawed theory. He WILL know the truth, one day, even I know this. But he's not alone and he's not the only one that pulls the free will card. It's amazing to me that so many actually don't believe in free will. Why? Because they don't believe in God! You see, you have the free will to totally not believe me, God or, even yourself! I don't wish to offend anyone, just stating how I feel. I've offered my testimonies to many people, some believe and some don't. No matter how right I may think I am, a person's own free will decides what course to take and for the thousandth and 7th time: God doesn't decide ANYTHING for us. To understand free will one must understand the creation of something so complex that it has the choice to defy you. That's called perfect love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggsUK Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I understand where you are coming from MT, but by your reasoning anybody who doesn't subscribe to your version of reality doesn't '.. have the insight or common sense to understand free will or little else.' Your perception of a God is one shared by a minority of people alive today, and a tiny minority of humans if all that ever lived are considered. How is it so that such a small group have the monopoly on common sense and reality, and by inference the vast, vast majority of the human race have been and are and will be in the future a bit thick by comparison? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTyme Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Diggs, I'm confident that I've provided and covered every possible angle so far as my beliefs and why I believe in them. Look around you, don't look at anything that man has made. Look at yourself instead. Now, ask yourself if you are willing to be happy in your belief that everything around you, excluding man-made objects, just became without any thought, rhyme, or reason. Now, look at the man-made objects. It makes exactly the same amount of sense to believe that your computer, VCR, refrigerator, or car just became without any thought, rhyme or reason. Actually it makes far more sense to believe that your computer was conjured out of nothingness without thought than to think creation happened without a creator. Now, look at yourself again. If you don't believe in a creator, it's the same as saying that you are no better than your appliances. You HAVE to believe also none of your material objects were planned. They just popped up! How can you look at a sandy beach, calm sea, an endless horizon, reflections of moonlight and an infinity of stars and not think that thought was behind it? But, you can find an old, unworking watch on that sandy beach with the calm sea, endless horizon, etc. which has Zero the magnificence of all you just surveyed and say to yourself: Someone made this watch. And still think that the universe, Earth and all it's inhabitants just popped up like toast without a toaster or someone to put in the toast. Yes, Diggs, I'm convinced that anyone that doesn't believe thought was responsible thereby substantiating a creator, then, my friend, common sense is not your cup of tea. No offense, but that's simply how I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggsUK Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 LOL It is your pet subject for sure, and you are indeed lucky to have such strong convictions. Whilst I happily accept that there are things out there that I cannot understand, and forces at play beyond our present knowledge of physics, I don't think this is indicative of my level of common sense. Do you recall a discussion we had a while back, where I agreed to be more understanding of your point of view and you agreed to be less condecending in return? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 God's plan is for everyone to do what is right but he gives us free will to make the decisions on our own. He does know the outcome of our choices... Take a step back and ask yourself: "If god knows the outcome of our choices (before we commit them), then, what is the purpose of judgment? Why bother creating something known - with absolute certainty - to be bad/evil/transgressive and then cast fault on it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTyme Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Diggs, we be alright. XXX, good question about judgment. Why are we judged when God already knows the outcome? Because we don't. But, one day, we ALL will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunt_Acid Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Muzik, you seriously need to become a preacher. Just drop the bit about whistling dixie through your butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windy1 Posted October 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Wow. I didn't really mean this to become a God discussion. Conscience, yes. Beliefs, yes. But as they relate practically to the problems that are facing us now, and mainly the big one coming up in November. Oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Listen, any preacher worth his salt can whistle Dixie through his butt! It is a requirement . Thatsa whole lotta beans and chili I'll try whistling through my nose, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTyme Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Windy, quite frankly, when I saw the thread title I asked myself, Damn, why didn't Windy just bump the other thread? So, I was just talking about something and this time debate was quite enjoyable. Thanks, XXX and Diggs. A word of advice, a suggestion if you will: People, when making a thread that you know has already been discussed before, think about courtesy and bump the original thread. I'd rather have a deck of cards in one box. We have to think of those (new members) that have not had a chance to see old threads and also, the original thread starter. To me, a copy-cat thread is as annoying as someone typing in all caps. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windy1 Posted October 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 muzik, that's all well and good, however. I didn't bump the other thread because I was talking specifically about the upcoming elections, and how things I saw in this movie have made me think and have made discision more difficult for me... As I stated it really required no reply,it was simply a statement, unless someone had something new to add. You guys took it off in loftier regions than I intended but that's ok. I didn't scold you for it. But thanks for the advice, I'll try to ask myself if muzik would approve before making any statements in the future. :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunt_Acid Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 YA I KNO WAT U MEAN MUZIK WINDY U SHOLDA NOT STARTED A NEW THREAD K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillianne Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 YA I KNO WAT U MEAN MUZIK WINDY U SHOLDA NOT STARTED A NEW THREAD K? Geez, get rid of the cap lock, and would you ever learn to spell..? :: And Windy was perfectly within her rights to make a new thread, this is a forum.. Bannana --> :happybanana: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunt_Acid Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 GEEZ I WAS J/K WTF DID I DO??/ I AM NOT TEHN00B!!1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSYCHOcatholic Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Wow! Here we go again! Windy1 It's Deja Vu All Over Again ~~ Yogi Berra (I just had soo much written...almost 6 paragraphs. But...i selected all and deleted. No more controversy. I think we should be talking about how to fix the problems this county has instead of fighting over WHO is gonna do it. GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING) Too many Bush freaks know NOTHING about Bush, and they Tune Kerry out so they dont know what he wants for the country. Then they attack him about how he LOOKS, and ACTS. HE SUPPORTS GAY UNION and Abortion. WHO FREAKIN CARES?!?! IM PRO LIFE! BUT IS THAT WHAT THE WHOLE FREAKIN ELECTION IS ABOUT! GEORGE W BUSH IS PRO LIFE! NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE ABOUT ABORTION! TOO MANY PROMISES MADE...TOO MANY PROMISES BROKEN! lemme ask a question.... Does Gay Union or Gay Marriage affect the way you life your life? Does someone getting an abortion AFFECT THE WAY YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE? NO!!! IT DOESNT!!! JUST LIKE PUTTING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IN A COURTHOUSE DOESNT AFFECT YOU OR YOUR RELIGON. THE ONLY TIME SOMETHING THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AFFECTS YOU IS WHEN YOU MESS WITH IT! DONT FIX THINGS THAT ARENT BROKEN! GAH! IM TIRED OF THIS ELECTION, ILL BE GLAD WHEN EVERYTHING IS DONE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSYCHOcatholic Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Roger...its ok. All Caps just get annoying sometimes...and when people dont spell right on purpose...its even more annoying. Just watch it from now on. Some people get annoyed easily. And, i dont know what Carl or Sara say about it, but "WTF" its almost the same as saying it. RESPECT COURTESY Words to live by. And Windy...you were good to make another thread. I was going to actually ask Carl if i could move the original thread to Random Thoughts with all the controversy about that subject. I changed the name of this thread though to suit its purpose. Muzik...your awesome as always about this stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCyberdemon Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Does Gay Union or Gay Marriage affect the way you life your life? Yes, gay marriage does affect my life. I don't want to be walking down the street seeing them act all lovey dovey on each other. After all, it's a proven fact that all lesbians and gay guys are ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillianne Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yes, gay marriage does affect my life. I don't want to be walking down the street seeing them act all lovey dovey on each other. After all, it's a proven fact that all lesbians and gay guys are ugly. Hey!!! There's Elton John! raaarr :happybanana: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_jr_ Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I don't have a problem with gay people. It's their choice. Do I condone homosexuality? No. But that doesn't give me the right to point a finger at anyone and condemn the way they choose to live their life. I do, however, find it a bit hypocritical for people to say "Don't stereotype us", then march in the Gay Pride parades wearing tiny shiny pants and and make up and prancing around, doing exactly what they are so appalled about. To answer someone's question, no, someone being gay doesn't affect me or my life in any way, shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yes, gay marriage does affect my life. I don't want to be walking down the street seeing them act all lovey dovey on each other. You do realize that they're going to do that no matter what, right? So unless you wanna pull a Hitler there's not much you can do to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggsUK Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I don't understand why gay marriage should be an issue at all, nevermind a Neo-conservative 'lets tell the populace that it is a problem' mindgame to gain Republican support. This is typical of what I see from over the pond in this election, loads of emphasis on the little things that get people going because people are told they should have a strong view and vote accordingly. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yeah, it's just a dumb ploy to get all the muzzle loading 'deliverance' types to the polls. "Hey Angus, look what them queer guys wanna do" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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