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PaulEdwardWagemann

Rockism: Good or Bad?

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not necessarily. sometimes just listening and enjoying the music as a finished product is the best way. it's like analysing a film can sometimes ruin its overall effect, or reading too deeply into the structure and meaning of a poem can shatter the illusion it creates when merely enjoyed as a whole. i have grown to hate many poems and novels through over-analysis in english class in my schooldays. sometimes art can just be art. a painting can take your breath away at first sight. it's not always necessary or even advisable to examine every brush stroke the artist made to create the masterpiece.

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daslied Said:I would think listening to be the single most important part.

AMEN Das !!! K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Son.

I dig Rock and Roll music and I love to get the chance to play

I figure it's about the happiest sound goin' down today

The message may not move me or mean a great deal to me,

But hey! it feels so groovy to say:

I dig the Mamas and the Papas at "The Trip," Sunset Strip in L.A.

And they got a good thing goin' when the words don't get in the way.

I'd never heard the word/term "Rockism" before this thread. :P

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So, I take it that it doesn't have anything to do with ' The Flintstones ' , eh, nor a state ruled by The Rolling Stones ... and nothing involving BF's wife ... Hmmm. Back to studying the links ... :confused: :stars:

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daslied Said:I would think listening to be the single most important part.

AMEN Das !!! K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Son.

I dig Rock and Roll music and I love to get the chance to play

I figure it's about the happiest sound goin' down today

The message may not move me or mean a great deal to me,

But hey! it feels so groovy to say:

I dig the Mamas and the Papas at "The Trip," Sunset Strip in L.A.

And they got a good thing goin' when the words don't get in the way.

I'd never heard the word/term "Rockism" before this thread. :P

then you haven't ever heard this Lennon classic:

Lyrics for: Give Peace A Chance

Two, one two three four

Ev'rybody's talking about

Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism

This-ism, that-ism, Rockis-m, Rockis-m, is-m is-m.

All we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chance

C'mon

Ev'rybody's talking about Ministers,

Sinisters, Banisters and canisters

Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Pop eyes,

And bye bye, bye byes.

All we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chance

Let me tell you now

Ev'rybody's talking about

Revolution, evolution, masturbation,

Flagellation, regulation, integrations,

Meditations, United Nations,

Congratulations.

All we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chance

Ev'rybody's talking about

John and Yoko, Timmy Leary, Rosemary,

Tommy Smothers, Bobby Dylan, Tommy Cooper,

Derek Taylor, Norman Mailer,

Alan Ginsberg, Hare Krishna,

Hare, Hare Krishna

All we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chance

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not necessarily. sometimes just listening and enjoying the music as a finished product is the best way. it's like analysing a film can sometimes ruin its overall effect, or reading too deeply into the structure and meaning of a poem can shatter the illusion it creates when merely enjoyed as a whole. i have grown to hate many poems and novels through over-analysis in english class in my schooldays. sometimes art can just be art. a painting can take your breath away at first sight. it's not always necessary or even advisable to examine every brush stroke the artist made to create the masterpiece.

That's correct. But isn't it human nature to want to understand something that you think is of high quality? Just think of how music has evolved since the time of Little Richard and Buddy HOlly. If Music is going to continue to evolve there needs to be some reflection, there needs to be some honing os skills, there needs to be a consciousness of Rock culture, Rock history, Rock society. That's what Rockism is about.

For the casual listener, just listening to the music is fine. If Brintey Spears moves them, then great. If Wham! or Panic! At the disco floats their boat, then gee-whiz willigans golly gee, that's great. But for the more discerning music fan, its fun to go beyond just the surface of a pop song that is heard on the radio and get to understand the music in a broader sense. That's where Rockism comes in to play.

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Well , putting it another way , but in the same vein; Say I bought a brand new car that I just loved and was certain that others would too ; eventually that inevitable scratch or nick afflicts it , and really , only I can see it . Now , everyone still says that this is a great car ( looking at the whole and uncritically ) , but I , knowing it's defect , see it as a great car - with a flaw that only I can notice .

Who is looking at the car properly ? The people who admire it as they see it , or the one who looks perhaps too intimately at the same thing and is somewhat repulsed ? It's like noticing a mole on your wife that isn't particularly attractive ; or are you are broad -minded enough to see her as a whole ?

This whole idea sucksism , imo .

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I don't know if I like this "Rockism" as you describe it. A lot of music I listen to, I listen to because it makes me feel good, or it's fun. Is that to say that my musical taste or musical opinion is not worth as much as someone's who picks apart every note?

If that's what it is, then so be it. I'd rather be a "casual listener" and be myself than follow some "movement" just to be thought of as cooler than everyone else.

I'm not talking about anyone personally, by the way, just expressing my opinion.

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But for the more discerning music fan, its fun to go beyond just the surface of a pop song that is heard on the radio and get to understand the music in a broader sense. That's where Rockism comes in to play.

just because one might choose to enjoy music without analysing it, doesn't mean that they are an undiscerning listener. it's not that i don't understand what you're trying to say. it's just that it comes across as snobbishness to assume that, unless one examines the music on a deeper level, then one is undiscerning or in some way missing out. many people are discerning when it comes to some genres of music, but enjoy other genres on a superficial level. for example, i love to know the meaning and inspiration behind classical music, whereas in the club i will shake my booty to whatever pop song comes on next.

pretty much all '-isms' are a bad thing when you come down to it.... fascism, nazism, sexism, racism....

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Yeah, some genres of music don't have much purpose beyond getting ClubKittens to get up and boogie. That's just fine. But some music has an impact on soceity, on history, on the evolution of music (musical style, technique, instrumentation, etc). Certainly you can see why these songs, albums, artists, etc would be interesting (if not even important) to be study, can't you?

Well , putting it another way , but in the same vein; Say I bought a brand new car that I just loved and was certain that others would too ; eventually that inevitable scratch or nick afflicts it , and really , only I can see it . Now , everyone still says that this is a great car ( looking at the whole and uncritically ) , but I , knowing it's defect , see it as a great car - with a flaw that only I can notice .

Who is looking at the car properly ? The people who admire it as they see it , or the one who looks perhaps too intimately at the same thing and is somewhat repulsed ? It's like noticing a mole on your wife that isn't particularly attractive ; or are you are broad -minded enough to see her as a whole ?

I'm not quite understanding this metaphor you are making. You are saying that a new car is like a song or an album? Is that right? But then you get a nick in your new car? So what does that represent? How can a song or album be nicked? Are you saying the CD or the album itself gets nicked? I really don't see how your attempted metaphor is relevent at all.

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I don't think Kevin's metaphor is really so obtuse...It makes sense to me. Is that something I (or he)should be worried about?

I think his second paragraph adequately explains the metaphor (twice). All that remains in some doubt is its pertinence to this thread. Although this, again, seems reasonably clear to me, in the light of the preceding debate regarding how we perceive music on an individualistic basis.

On a different tack....

Paul, it is because you apparently espouse this view...

PaulEdwardWagemann Said:

But some music has an impact on soceity, on history, on the evolution of music (musical style, technique, instrumentation, etc). Certainly you can see why these songs, albums, artists, etc would be interesting (if not even important) to be study, can't you?

...with which I tend to agree, that I find some of your criticisms of The Sex Pistols (on the "Did the Sex Pistols Kill Punk?" thread) somewhat perplexing...

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I've only read a bit of this, but I do understand Kevin's point... What he is saying is that if one over-anal(emphasis on the 'anal')ises a piece of music and finds a flaw, the pleasure in that piece is diminished to a degree totally out of proportion to the flaw itself. The comparison with the wife and mole is spurious however, as that is nothing a bit of boiling water and a shovel would sort out...

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