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Blue Fish

Saddam sentenced to hang (i know it's not music related but still..)

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I can't help thinking that BlueFish is right. :o

It's a shame she couldn't have been there to exert some influence over the direction taken by pure-of-heart but misguided Adolf.

Subject to a few philosophical discussions with BlueFish on the subject of "achieving salvation through beauty, art, poetry and the love of Jesus Christ", he might have shot himself a few years sooner, and all that horrid genocide stuff (and all his other naughty behaviour) might have been avoided.

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I understand where Bluefish is coming. Idealism is the halo of youth. Hopefully, we all carried it at some point in our lives.

The horrors visited by men like Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Pol Pot are facilitated through a dominion-genius ability to influence (more like warp) the minds of those around them to fit their own purposes. Some may say, "I would love to be the one to snuff out that "genius" before it ever had the opportunity to flower." Bluefish would instead have rather been able to channel that genius for the benefit of mankind. We who have been jaded through life experiences may say "Could not be done ...," but what a noble outlook to say, "... if only."

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Idealism is the halo of youth.

What do Hitler and his beautifull paintings have to do with idealism, Ron?? :P I´m afraid I don´t get it and I guess some mod shoud delete all this but ´m just going to ignore this thread and keep on posting elsewhere.

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...and his dream of a pure Germany, yes he took it OTT to a huge amount but it was still the hunger in his heart to hold onto something he loved, he was willing to do anything to "keep his beloved germany german". i would have liked to be able to help him to be construtive in this love for Germany while he was young, then he could have done beautiful things...

You can call this point of view "idealism", if you like. :stars: Personally, I think that belated protestations that the words "without the bloodshed" were accidentally omitted are neither here nor there. This paragraph appears to express a significant degree of sympathy with the philosophy of eugenics (belief in racial purity/"survival of the fittest") which underpinned Hitler's atrocities towards mankind. This philosophy not only motivated Nazi persecution of the Jews but also the systematic murder of (German) people with physical/learning disabilities, (German) people with mental illness and (German)homosexuals.

You can take this "Love the sinner, hate the sin" schtick too far, you know.

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oh dear. I don't seem to be healing anything with my last few posts. i think it would be a good idea for a Mod to just delete this all, it's got out of hand and my apoligys count for nothing, neathier does that fact that I stated the fact that no harm was ment and that I didn't Express my opinions in a sensitive or construtive way.

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I would only ask, B-F, if at the age of 17, were you able to construct your idealistic thoughts in such an airtight fashion that no 41 year old skeptic could tear it apart?

You are fishing in a barrel with a shotgun.

Look more at the motivation, not the finesse of the apologetics.

And as far as "taking this 'love the sinner and not the sin' too far" ... let us both hope that the line does not creep any closer to our own.

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I would only ask, B-F, if at the age of 17, were you able to construct your idealistic thoughts in such an airtight fashion that no 41 year old skeptic could tear it apart?

I know exectly what you mean, and the answer is, of course "No, I couldn't".

It was a very different world then, and frankly, we hot-headed 17 year olds very rarely got the chance to accost 41 year old sceptics with our absurdly idealistic worldviews. So we continued blustering away amongst ourselves in blissful ignorance...(Having said that, our "idealism" tended to be of the "anti-nuclear, anti-government, anti-capitalist" variety, rather than that "Nazi-sympathiser" brand of idealism.)

You are fishing in a barrel with a shotgun.
I take exception to your suggestion that I am picking on an easy target, and an implication that I might be enjoying it. This isn't some jocular sparring match with johnnyguitar.

Hitler's pursuit of Aryan perfection was emphaticallynot a "beautiful dream, flawed in the manner of its execution". Such an assertion, by whomever, demands to be vigourously challenged.

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No, B-F (not to be confused with Blue Fish) I was not implying you were enjoying the act of shooting fish in a barrel. The use of this particular metaphor was equating the ease of revealing Blue Fish in error, by comparison of your intellect to hers as revealed through the posts of the two of you.

I read this from Blue Fish - "I think what Hitler did was one of the most dreadful things to have ever happened to this world I never said i liked what he did, in fact I explicitly siad i DIDN'T like what he did so you wouldn't get the wrong end of the stick. It's hard to explain this type of thing.." and saw the grammatical and rhetorical confusion of her youthfulness. You apparently read something that made you feel she has sympathies akin to neo-nazism, in which case, I agree, she should be chastened vigorously.

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Two things come to mind. First, to Bloof: just an FYI, because you said you didn't know who Jim Jones or David Koresh were. Hitler was a same-thing-but-different idiot (on a larger scale) as Jim Jones and David Koresh. The same thing being that he obtained the following of thousands (millions?) while sending millions (thousands?) to their deaths for nothing more than existing. The different part being he didn't "obtain" them by telling them he was Christ reincarnate. In fact, I'm of the understanding (true?) that he was an atheist.

Second, to anyone: my question is, if a soul is already lost, how is it recoverable? This is not meant to be a jab at anyone, I'm honestly flummoxed by this contradiction.

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No, B-F (not to be confused with Blue Fish) I was not implying you were enjoying the act of shooting fish in a barrel. The use of this particular metaphor was equating the ease of revealing Blue Fish in error, by comparison of your intellect to hers as revealed through the posts of the two of you.

I read this from Blue Fish - "I think what Hitler did was one of the most dreadful things to have ever happened to this world I never said i liked what he did, in fact I explicitly siad i DIDN'T like what he did so you wouldn't get the wrong end of the stick. It's hard to explain this type of thing.." and saw the grammatical and rhetorical confusion of her youthfulness. You apparently read something that made you feel she has sympathies akin to neo-nazism, in which case, I agree, she should be chastened vigorously.

I understand, S2V. I'm flattered to be regarded as an intellectual heavyweight, especially in comparison to someone who is confident of learning the Greek language in a matter of weeks. It took me 9 years to become fluent in French!

But seriously, I can see why you might think I have been a little heavy-handed here. However, I am not concerned with "winning an argument" or "points-scoring" (for a change??! ;) ): I am simply trying to make something understood.

The reason why I first felt compelled to comment was BlueFish's assertion that Hitler had "a beautiful mind". When asked by other SFers to justify this puzzling claim, BlueFish cited his appreciation of art and "his dream of a pure Germany... ...the hunger in his heart to hold onto something he loved, he was willing to do anything to "keep his beloved germany german". In other circumstances, idealism, hunger and determination might be an admirable combination. In these circumstances, I think not. My point (which I've already made once, but whatever) was that Hitler's dream(the creation of a "master-race") was not a creditable objective which sadly went awry, (great in theory, but bad in practice) but was corrupt to begin with. BlueFish may never have heard of Eugenics (the system of beliefs underpinning Hitler's dream): I hadn't at her age. Notwithstanding the atrocities committed in its name, the concept itself is a despicable perversion of humanity, yet continues to hold some currency in the modern world.

I have learned a great deal over the years from discussing issues with people wiser than myself...In this thread, as far as I'm concerned I was neither arguing with BlueFish, nor trying to outdo her, (hence not shooting (Blue)fish in a barrel), so much as trying to tell her something useful, that she may reconsider her position. (Or at least, how she articulates her position.)

BlueFish has the benefit of a religious education, and, I imagine, plenty of resources to call upon: learned professors in Ethics/Philosophy, libraries, access to the Internet, etc. In her shoes, I might be thinking "I've no idea what this Eugenics stuff means, but I 'm sure going to find out".

Edited by Guest
sub "wiser" for "cleverer" and anyway as far as I'm concerned I aint all that...

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