U2- Catholic/ Protestant War

[Laguna1987]

Whats the deal with it?

i dont get what the war is about, feel like enlightening me anyone?

I've Irish roots, but reside in australia.

[SoulGirl]

i'm typing this from memory so apologies if any facts are wrong! well here goes...

the situation is rooted in the 17th century when the queen of england decided that the solution to the problem of unruly irish people resisting british rule was to move large numbers of british people to ireland. this was called the plantations. hundreds of loyal british subjects came to ireland and more or less took over, trying to instil their ways and customs on the irish people. this is the main cause of the decline of the irish language as well since there was a ban on speaking irish and people were punished for doing so.

the most successful plantation was in the north of the country in the province of ulster. this was for a number of reasons, mainly because the planters came from scotland and the people were very similar in ways and customs. also, belfast had become industrialised and had a lot more in common with the scottish settlers than with the rural people of the rest of ireland.

over the years many irish people agitated for the return of ireland to irish control. after a number of failed attempts, home rule was brought in. this basically gave ireland a dominion status in that it was still under the rule of the crown but had a limited degree of power over domestic affairs. however a large number of irish people remained dissatisfied and this came to a head in the early 1900s. the easter rising of 1916 was a failed attempt at establishing an irish republic and its leaders were executed. in 1920, two prominent irish politicians were leading discussions with the british PM, attempting to negotiate ireland's establishment as a republic, these were eamon de valera and michael collins. the british PM gave two choices:

1)the establishment of the whole of ireland as an independent state but with the main ports remaining in british control. this was seen as unacceptable to the irish because british navy using irish ports would undermine the sovereignty of the irish state.

2)the declaration of an independent irish state of 26 counties with complete control in the hands of the irish. the remaining six counties would stay under british rule. these were the six most northerly states, only six of the nine counties of ulster. the reason for this was that due to the successful ulster plantation the population had become a majority of protestants who were loyal to the crown.

michael collins agreed to the second option, saying that it was a 'stepping stone' to a full irish state of all 32 counties. it was agreed that a boundary commission would examine the area of the border and decide where the border should lie. in 1926 they finally decided that the border should remain as it was much to the surprise of the irish catholics who had felt sure that the areas of some counties which had a majority of catholics would have been made part of the irish state.

in the meantime, collins' acceptance of the terms of the treaty had been extremely divisive. there was a bitter civil war in ireland with those who followed collins fighting against those who followed eamon de valera. these divisions are now represented, although in a much less bitter way, in the modern political parties of fianna fail (dev) and fianna gael (collins). this civil war was devastating, with brothers fighting against brothers. michael collins was assassinated. the black and tans, a force of british ex-army officers, didn't help matters much and actually burned down my city of cork in 1921.

so, the state of northern ireland came into existence in 1921 in very contentious circumstances. the division between the population of northern ireland is actually along political lines, that is the unionists who believe that northern ireland should remain a part of the united kingdom and the nationalists who believe that northern ireland should be a part of the nation of ireland. however, the unionists were largely protestant and the nationalists were mainly catholic and hence the division has been two-fold, along religious lines as well as political.

another important part of the history of the northern irish state comes in the 1960s with the civil rights movement. over the years the catholic minority had been mistreated. gerrymandering, that is the redrawing of electoral constituencies to ensure the victory of the unionists, meant that catholics were not represented fairly in local government. catholics were denied equal opportunities in employment, education and social services. in the 1960s a number of catholics came together, following the example of the civil rights movement in the US, and started peaceful protests. these often descended into violence due to attacks by unionists. the U2 song, 'sunday bloody sunday' is about one such event. what started out as a peaceful march got out of hand and 13 unarmed marchers were shot dead by the british army.

at around this time the IRA, an old movement which had struggled for irish independence, was revived and split into two camps. the old IRA and the provisional IRA. the latter began using violence and terrorist acts as a means to have their voice heard. there followed a long and bloody bombing campaign with the loss of many lives. the response of the british government was to introduce curfews and internment. catholic houses were routinely searched for weapons and catholics suspects, some of whom were competely innocent of any illegal activity but merely sympahtisers to the cause, were interned and kept in jail for many years without any formal charges or trials. prisoners in the jail led a dirty protest when they daubed the walls of the cells with excrement. a number of inmates including bobby sands demanded status as political prisoners and the right to wear their own clothes which was denied by margaret thatcher, the british PM at the time. they refused to wear prisoner uniforms and chose to wear blankets instead. finally they went on hunger strike and 17 people died.

the time in the 1970s and 80s was the worst time of the struggle and called the troubles. since the 1990s there has been a huge amount of progress. the IRA declared a ceasefire in 1994 which lasted two years. the good friday agreement was signed in 1998 which set up a new kind of inclusive parliament in northern ireland and stated that if a referendum was held and a majority voted to be a part of ireland then this would be accepted. this was a huge bone of contention for many unionists such as the rev ian paisley, leader of the DUP, the democratic unionist party. however the majority of the population is still unionist and will remain so until at least 2050. in july of this year there was a very important event when the IRA offically announced that they would cease all military and illegal operations and move towards political involvement. this was followed by the decommissioning of IRA arms, which was a prerequisite laid down by the unionists before they would sit down at discussions with sinn fein, the political wing of the nationalist movement. many people had thought that decommissioning would never happen so this was a huge step.

despite remaining tensions between the catholic and protestant populations of northern ireland the situation has improved hugely in the last decade. it is not likely to be completely resolved for a long time but it is no longer a war.

[_Laurie_]

Wow SoulGirl...I give you an A+ for memory!....good job!

[DiggsUK]

The average Brit will see it differently of course, as one sees history from an individual perspective. On the mainland we have had painful reminders of the IRA's agenda through bombing, shooting and all manner of dubious activities described as 'fund-raising'. One has to remember that for centuries England has been a protestant country, and Ireland a pawn in Papist attempts to subjugate the English. Furthermore in two World Wars many Irish gave assistance to Germany as a way of having a go at the English. The history of Ireland has been one of English occupation and exploitation for sure, the majority of this for political (read 'religious') reasons. Today we who would gladly let Irish people control their own Government, whichever way the Irish decided to go, are as ashamed of our country's past as it is possible to be when little Irish history is taught and very few people in England have any idea of how the modern Ireland arose.

The trouble is, 20th Century Irish social history is dominated by armed struggle in both camps, and the organisations originally devised as political are so entrenched that a gangster culture exists in urban areas nowadays.

Regards

[SoulGirl]

Furthermore in two World Wars many Irish gave assistance to Germany as a way of having a go at the English.

perhaps a small number did, but not 'many'. irish soldiers fought in WWI since ireland was still a dominion state at that time. ireland stayed out of WWII as a political maneovre because 1) we had declared neutrality and 2) maintaining that neutrality was seen as a way to separate ireland from the UK in international eyes. in reality irish policy was more favourable to the allies than the nazis. nazi soldiers whi landed in ireland were interned whereas allied soldiers were released. allied forces were allowed to refuel on irish soil. admittedly our president eamonn de valera took his attempt at maintaining this neutral stance one step too far by signing a book of condolence on the death of hitler, much to all of our continued embarrassment!

diggs, naturally your perspective is different to mine and i haven't gone through the fear of the threat of terror attacks. i don't condone terrorism in any form. but many people aren't really aware of the reality of the situation.

[SoulGirl]

sorry, i meant to add this earlier but my brother was pressuring me to get offline. the majority of irish soldiers who took part in WWI actually fought on the british side because they saw it as a bargaining chip. they figured that after the war the fourth home rule bill would finally be passed by the british out of gratitude for their participation in WWI. this did in fact happen but by that stage the irish agitators were no longer happy with mere dominion status and limited control but instead wanted an irish republic.

diggs, i understand your position in this. it's not a comparison but i feel the same when people complain about the behaviour of the germans during the nazi dictatorship. i get defensive even though i know it's not my fault that it happened and it in no way represents me and my feelings. it's hard not to take it personally when it's your nation that is seen as the wrong-doer. and like in every conflict, there were both wrong-doers and victims on both sides. however the irish terrorists were a small minority of people whereas the british position was pursued by the government which represents the people in general.

please don't misunderstand my position as biased or anti-british. i'm studying this stuff in college and receiving a very objective education on the issue. naturally my own opinion is influenced by my family history and other factors but i would like to think that i am not unfair or predjudiced in my analysis of events.

[DiggsUK]

I agree SoulGirl, and do not think for one minute that you speak out of prejudice. Indeed, I am grateful for the information you give to me as I have only a very 'English' perspective. This is bourne out of living as a child on an army camp with half the regiment 'on tour' at a time. Plus, my father used to work at a Cat.1 prison (I won't name which one) that housed amongst others convicted IRA terrorists. He had to use a stick-mirror every day for years....

We live on different sides of the story for sure, and I am glad things are getting better, for all our sakes.

x

Iain

[SoulGirl]

thanks iain, i'm glad that you said that. it's amazing how close we are to one another and yet how far apart! it's great that we can learn from another though.

much love-xo

[DiggsUK]

Jake Burns says it so much better than me:

I could be a soldier

Go out there and fight to save this land

Be a people's soldier

Paramilitary gun in hand

I won't be a soldier

I won't take no orders from no-one

Stuff their ******* armies

Killing isn't my idea of fun

(Chorus)

They wanna waste my life

They wanna waste my time

They wanna waste my life

And they've stolen it away

I could be a hero

Live and die for their 'important' cause

A united nation

Or an independent state with laws

And rules and regulations

That merely cause disturbances and wars

That is what I've got now

All thanks to the freedom-seeking hordes

(Chorus)

I'm not gonna be taken in

They said if I don't join I just can't win

I've heard that story many times before

And every time I threw it out the door

Still they come up to me

With a different name but same old face

I can see the connection

With another time and a different place

They ain't blonde-haired or blue-eyed

But they think that they're the master race

They're nothing but blind fascists

Brought up to hate and given lives to waste

(Chorus: repeat)

Respec Gisela!

Regards

[SoulGirl]

nice one, diggs, it says more about a situation like this than i ever could, having been lucky enough never to be caught up in such a conflict.

[PSYCHOcatholic]

Literally...there are holy wars going on in every major country in the United States.