save the educations!

[scott]

Hey, schools suck

they're underfunded, and the teachers are underqualified

and the curriculum has been cut down to reading and addition.

Music and arts are non-existant, even tho they're important, we've put stress on the idea that 'learning a foreign language is important' but have failed to grasp that music is a language, a universal language.

College is completely unaffordable, which forces apathy upon many a high school student.

The american government has decided that we can spend nine trillion dollars we don't have on imaginary missle defense shields and war effort, 21 billion dollars a week for warpuposes, but we can't afford to pay teachers better, expand the curriculum, build more schools, and actually teach the children of this nation.

You can ignore it now, but it's gonna get kinda uncomfortable twenty years down the line when everyone's a complete moron and... gasp! They're gonna be in charge of taking care of you!

[The Seeker]

Music and arts are non-existant, even tho they're important, we've put stress on the idea that 'learning a foreign language is important' but have failed to grasp that music is a language, a universal language.

I agree with most of your other points, but I refuse to put music or the arts on the same level of importance as foreign languages. You won't ever be able to communicate with people from other countries through music. Sure arts is important, but you'll get by very well without taking music in school. English and foreign languages... not so much. To me that;s an essential part of education... I realise not everyone learns a foreign language, but they should. Much more than music.

[Lucky]

I think most of us that are parents know all too well that the school systems of today suck Scott. Don't forget, we come from a time when they actually didn't (at least not as badly). I learned a foreign language, played an instrument, participated in organized school sports, and still learned to read, write, and add.

I sent 4 kids to public schools, and participated with them throughout. I've supported almost every tax hike, and bond issue put to me, having to do with education, simply for the reasons that you stated. I will continue to do so. I get angry with people that don't have children, that don't support these issues... these are going to be thier future lawmakers, what are they thinking?! The solution lies not in talking to us, but talking to your government leaders, and voting those candidates in that do something more than just provide lip service. Leaders that see the importance of focusing not only attention but financial support to the educational system, to bring about the changes necessary. In other words... find a candidate, and VOTE!

[scott]

If you take a foreign language, you will be able to communicate with one extra group of people.

If you know music, you will be able to communicate with everyone. Music transcends language and culture, it is universal.

You can convey every emotion, every moment of life through music, a symphony is packed full of every expression a human being is possible of making.

Need proof? Understandable, I'm making a ballzy claim

sigur ros.

Furthormore, music requires multiple fields of discipline, making it very very very very very very important to the education of a child

there is math involved, there are rules and guidelines, you spell with notes, you create, it teaches logic and reason, it allows a gateway to be opened directly from soul to the physical world.

It integrates with every field of study schooling has to offer.

I will also point out that I wasn't saying that we should eliminate foreign language from the curriculum, just that music should be reintegrated.

and that everything should actually be funded.

[Lucky]

If I had to choose between foreign language, and music and/or art... music and art win hands down. But my opinion is probably purely cultural. Here in the US, we can live out entire lives without ever really needing a foreign language. I realize if you live in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, that isn't necessarily the case.

To not teach music, and art however? To not give our children a foundation in the arts? That is insane, in my opinion.

[Ombre Vivante]

Music and maths far exceeds any other language. I could probably reach more people with great music rather than learning their language and meeting people one-by-one.

[scott]

Right on, our little tykes need a foundation in the arts for sure, or else, how will we have souls?

Now, I see that you are aware that schools are kinda suckin' right now

but do you realize how bad it's gotten?

thanks to the no child left behind act, high schools around the country are only doing two things-reading and math, that's it

because, if something like 80% of your kids don't score proficiently on the readingmath test, your school gets it's federal funding revoked.

so while all the attention gets pumped into those two subjects, which gets... painfully boring. everything else fades into the background

When I was a high school senior, I took a government and an economics class, the government course was taught by a football coach, and the economics class consisted of a lot of coloring, and playing the 'stock market game' and these were classes for seniors,

think about that, with the skyrocketing cost of a college education, that could be the only exposure to government and economics that a student will ever receive...ever!

and meanwhile, our economy grinds to a halt due in part by misguided decisions by an undereducated lower class.

WTF!

[The Seeker]

But on what level does that work? If you're abroad... if you're talking to a foreigner... if politicians discuss things... they can't just make music. You NEED language there, and in so many other areas where music won't help you at all. Even if it's just one group of people... there are differences there too. Chinese, English, Spanish... those are huge groups. And if it's just Norwegian... it's still a few million more people.

Even if music transmits feelings... only a small amount of (popular) music is instrumental. What language are you going to sing in? No one's going to understand what you're actually trying to say, outside of your own country, unless they've learned your language. I think music's just nowhere near as important as foreign languages in everyday life.

I know you're not saying you want to get rid of foreign languages altogether... I just don't think any cuts should be made to them just to integrate music more. And in that area, the education system does suck. Music didn't teach me a thing in school. I can't even read music properly - I can tell you that this is a C and this is an F, but that's about it. I took two foreign languages in school, I'm learning one on my own, and those languages allow me to understand quite a bit of (and about) other languages too. That's why I say music's just nowhere near as importan as languages nowadays. Outside of school, music's taught me a lot though... so if you've got decent teachers and a good curriculum, I'm all for more music in schools.

[scott]

sigur ros

And budget cuts to one area is hardly what I'm proposing!

that's the antithesis of my argument

More money for schools, more schools, better teachers, fully fleshed out curriculums.

less money for missle defense and gov. pork

[The Seeker]

As for everything else... it seems like you're much worse off in the US.

[scott]

oh I forgot you're bri'ish

Yeah, not to be a d-bag and say 'it's an american thing, you wouldn't understand'

.....it's an american thing...you wouldn't understand.

Really, I doubt you would, the crumbling of our school systems are barely reported on in our own country.. I don't see it being huge news elsewhere (actually maybe it would be bigger news out there)

it's really something you've gotta live to experience.

The other thing, we're lookin' at foreign languages differently on opposite sides of the pond

the fact is, america's big, and surronded by people who speak english, the exception being if you life down the south border, and most people there pick up a bit of spanish just by being around it so much.

Most of us americans(sadly) will not have the chance to leave our country, and if we do, it'll be to Canada, our need to learn a foreign language isn't as functional as yours.

I'm sorry, I'm a rambly poster.

See, you're much more likely to actually arrive in a situation in which you will have to communicate specific sentences, questions, or demands,

whereas over here, the purpose of learning a foreign language is more... academic, it's a way of connecting different parts of your brain, of opening up new passages in the noggin.

Because of the nature of why we learn foreign languages in the US, it would make equal, if not greater sense, to focus on music, as it opens the brain to the exact same philosophy, of learning a new way to communicate, of reading a different 'language.'

maybe that helps validate my point?

[The Seeker]

So we agree on that, no cuts, just more arts... but since you've mentioned Sigur Ros twice and it seems to be the answer to a lot of what I said, I'm a bit curious as to why. I'm just getting the impression that you're trying to say that communication through music seems to be more of a solution to problems than communication through language. In an ideal world, maybe, but not this one.

It's a good idea though... music is present in a lot of areas. It's just a pity that a lot of people don't seem to be able to really appreciate it, and learn from it.

[Ombre Vivante]

Not really. I can afford much more music and movies as well as live in an exclusive neighborhood than if I were to live anywhere else in the world. Gasoline is turning really expensive, though, and our congress is filled to the brim with corruption, which kinda makes me angry when I think about it.

[Lucky]

Some of the focus on math is there for a reason,Scott, and it is a reason that I understand. Our children (especially girls) are far behind other countries in the areas of math and science, and not because we spent so much time teaching them music...but because we (my parents generation) didn't place the necessary importance on education as a whole. The money was spent, as you've said, on wars we didn't win both real and cold (I know, that doesn't make sense, but you get what I mean). Now we've fallen so far behind I really don't know that we'll ever catch up.

I'm very much aware of how bad it is. It's appalling, frankly. Where I live the teachers are being laid off, and playgrounds aren't even kept up, let alone a decent class in music. I'm still trying to understand actually having to pay for transportation to a public school. The parents here have to pay for their children to ride the (public) school bus! I'll agree with you on every issue here, more than likely. Besides being a parent and now, grandparent, I'm the child of teachers (high school, both math, and music).

[The Seeker]

oh I forgot you're bri'ish

Yeah, not to be a d-bag and say 'it's an american thing, you wouldn't understand'

.....it's an american thing...you wouldn't understand.

Really, I doubt you would, the crumbling of our school systems are barely reported on in our own country.. I don't see it being huge news elsewhere (actually maybe it would be bigger news out there)

it's really something you've gotta live to experience.

The other thing, we're lookin' at foreign languages differently on opposite sides of the pond

the fact is, america's big, and surronded by people who speak english, the exception being if you life down the south border, and most people there pick up a bit of spanish just by being around it so much.

Most of us americans(sadly) will not have the chance to leave our country, and if we do, it'll be to Canada, our need to learn a foreign language isn't as functional as yours.

I'm sorry, I'm a rambly poster.

See, you're much more likely to actually arrive in a situation in which you will have to communicate specific sentences, questions, or demands,

whereas over here, the purpose of learning a foreign language is more... academic, it's a way of connecting different parts of your brain, of opening up new passages in the noggin.

Because of the nature of why we learn foreign languages in the US, it would make equal, if not greater sense, to focus on music, as it opens the brain to the exact same philosophy, of learning a new way to communicate, of reading a different 'language.'

maybe that helps validate my point?

It does. I know you can get by with just English and be perfectly fine... but I think that's just the US, really. Which is why you should be glad everyone learns English these days

But I know... it's quite different where you are, so that's why we;ve got different points of view.

[The Seeker]

Not really. I can afford much more music and movies as well as live in an exclusive neighborhood than if I were to live anywhere else in the world. Gasoline is turning really expensive, though, and our congress is filled to the brim with corruption, which kinda makes me angry when I think about it.

Well, this thread is about education, so that's what I was referring to.

That said, I wouldn't want to live in the US, music and movies and nice neighbourhoods or not. Just like you probably wouldn't want to live anywhere else

[scott]

I kept saying sigur ros, because they're from Iceland, and sing in a nordic language (norweigan maybe?)

but it's heartbreakingly beautiful music, and even tho you don't know the words they're saying... you understand it.

And, Lucky, I love math, it's great, geometry and all of that non-functional, yet highly brainbuilding trig stuff is great fun, and I definately see the importance of it.

I am also aware of how bad we are at it compared to countries abroad.

but focusing on just that one subject in an effort to turn a generation into calculators who are good at nothing else is... probably worse than being bad at math.

[Ombre Vivante]

Only if you're talking about the West End

We have some of the best universities in the world and we have libraries in almost every city here. We're also the most connected to the Internet in the world. The problem is not so much about expenditure (although it is one of the problems), but also a lack of parental responsibility and interest in their kids. I wouldn't know who else to blame for that but the parents themselves. The resources are there, they just don't make use of them. Lazy and stupid parents raise lazy and stupid kids.

[scott]

also, It's not all about music and arts

altho, I think they are veryveryveryvery important

Lit programs are awful

Goverment and econ, might as well just tell everyone to wikipedia the subjects and they get an A, I don't even want to try going into the streets and asking if anyone knows the three branches of government

Even basic health and nutrition...

the whole system needs a complete overhaul

and I'd say start it by offering to subsidize those who would go to college to become teachers, and an increase in teacher salary

because, who's gonna want to be a teacher, when going to a decent college is gonna inject debt straight intayer arse, only to graduate and land a job that pays....not so much.

then the counterargument would be "why not just send the prospective teachers to a community college or second rate school?"

yeah... I want all my teachers to have graduated from the local university... hooray. Trust me, I've had those teachers... you don't want them teaching your kids.

So good, cheap educations for those who wanna be teachers.

More schools

schools are overcrowded, and there's no way you can learn like that

simple as that.

and much more

[Farin]

I kept saying sigur ros, because they're from Iceland, and sing in a nordic language (norweigan maybe?)

Icelandic perhaps?

actually, what I think you are refering to is called "Vonlenska" ("Hopelandic"), not a real language, but sounds beautiful nonetheless

[scott]

haha, sorry

all I know is, I don't know what the words are, but it sounds great, and I understand it.

Also, beethoven bach and mozart were all german... but I think we can all understand what they're communicating.

[The Seeker]

I think Martin will want to object...

[scott]

sorry, austrian.

but that means the spoke german right?

sorry for being geographically ignorant.

......

I think bach was german tho.

[Lucky]

focusing on just that one subject in an effort to turn a generation into calculators who are good at nothing else is... probably worse than being bad at math.

We have some of the best universities in the world and we have libraries in almost every city here. We're also the most connected to the Internet in the world. The problem is not so much about expenditure (although it is one of the problems), but also a lack of parental responsibility and interest in their kids. I wouldn't know who else to blame for that but the parents themselves. The resources are there, they just don't make use of them. Lazy and stupid parents raise lazy and stupid kids.

It is our job as parents to see to it that our children recieve the best, most well rounded education possible, from whatever source. We've gotten used to the idea that our govenment is going to provide that... and unfortunately, that isn't the case anymore, a situation that needs to be rectified, but probably won't be, not in my lifetime anyway.

[The Seeker]

Anyway, I agree of course. I was only talking about vocal music. Instrumentals, or even vocal songs without the vocals are different.