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Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees...well kind of Rock and Roll!


Sweet Jane 61

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Very good b-f. You were able to smell my "contempt" of rap music "right from the off". To me it,in many cases,promotes violence and racism and degrades women,yet it is billed as "expression" and sometimes even "art". While other forms of music may promote the same thing's,it is done it in a more subtle way. Not smack the listener over the head with it. I don't think I am the only one here who has ever felt that way about rap music. I will stand by my opinion that in no way,shape or form should any rap/hip hop artist be nominated and certainly not inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. If you feel that is more "bile",well,sorry about your luck.

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RE: smelling "contempt" of rap music "right from the off".

What I meant by that was: at an early stage in this discussion,long before you laid your cards on the table, I thought to myself "Hello, hello, here we go again...no matter how we conduct this discussion,it's only a matter of time before we have the "anti-rap tirade"- the one that punctuates every thread where rap or hip-hop has ever been discussed on these boards. Thank you for not dissapointing me.

To me it,in many cases,promotes violence and racism
...I don't like those features either...I don't think you'll find The Beastie Boys do this kind of thing, though. :P

and degrades women,yet it is billed as "expression" and sometimes even "art". While other forms of music may promote the same thing's,it is done it in a more subtle way.
Excellent! I always think it's so much more laudible to make ones misogyny as subtle as possible, don't you? Let's say a big "Hurrah for Rock Music!", because it degrades women subtly.

The history of Rock'n'Roll contains a litany of sexism, degradation, misogyny. It's a pretty sexist business all round, or hadn't you noticed? Remove all the sexists, perverts, and miscellaneous macho bullshitters from the picture and what are you left with? *&^%$£" Coldplay, that's what.

I'm pretty sure there might even be a few in the R'n'R Hall Of Fame who've degraded some women in their time. :o

"It's A Man's Man's Man's World" - Society as a whole at the very least discriminates against women, and arguably degrades women daily through the way they are represented across all-pervasive media including TV ads, soap operas, billboards, magazine covers, etc. Traditionally, the music biz- including many of its biggest names- has colluded with this oppression in the use of women as glamourous ornamentation in pop videos, album sleeves, or as bit-part actors in sordid tales of rock'n'roll folk-lore, etc.....Fans of rock'n'roll- whatsoever form that elusive beast may take- we all collude in that oppression to some extent or another.

I note your ironic mockery of the word "art" being used in relation to rap music. "What is Art?" is a whole new thread obviously, which might become too taxing even for my mighty intellect ( ;) ), but personally, I don't see how any form of musical production is any less "art" than another, simply because it's made by people whose "works", techniques, lifestyles and political views we don't appreciate.

I don't think I am the only one here who has ever felt that way about rap music.
Indeed not.

I will stand by my opinion that in no way,shape or form should any rap/hip hop artist be nominated and certainly not inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. If you feel that is more "bile",well,sorry about your luck.

Nothing wrong with my luck at the moment, but thanks for your concern anyway. (cap-doffing smiley)

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Excellent! I always think it's so much more laudible to make ones misogyny as subtle as possible, don't you? Let's say a big "Hurrah for Rock Music!", because it degrades women subtly.

:bow: :bow:

I wanted to reply to that too, but I knew of course that you would make it much better than I would have :thumbsup:

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Thank you for taking what I said out of context. I think most on here know what I meant by it. Some don't examine every single sentence and words looking for ways to put another poster down. I think this has become something more personal for some and if that is a case,it's a shame that they have nothing more to do than put down somebody's views just because they dislike that persons opinions. I say what I say on here based on what I believe,not to make somebody look stupid. Of course those sorts of things are done by those who feel they are far superior than others when it comes to knowledge. In doing so,they often are the ones who are left looking stupid.

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no no, I'm not taking it personal blue'n'white :)

and I don't want to put down everything you said, but you really did say that it's better to subtly degrade women compared to the direct, in-the-face style of HipHop music (which I don't approve in any way either :) )

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no no, I'm not taking it personal blue'n'white :)

and I don't want to put down everything you said, but you really did say that it's better to subtly degrade women compared to the direct, in-the-face style of HipHop music (which I don't approve in any way either :) )

I think most know what I meant by it. I think during the history of rock music there has been songs that have been somewhat degrading to women. I think most would agree that rap music does it more and it is much more "in your face." Again it's about taking something out of context. I didn't mean that rock music is about the subtle degrading of women. But I think anybody who has listened to rock music knows,in some songs,it has been done.I'm sure it could ge easily "googled" to find exact songs and lyrics to back up my point. But there is no question that rap music does it with a much stronger tone.And I do think this is more of a personal thing than a music thing.

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Intriguing... just Saturday night we were having a round-table discussion of rap music lyrics, and how it is degrading to women. Although rock music can be degrading, as well, I know exactly what blue-n-white means by the fact that rock does it in a more "subtle" manner.

Rap music by and large uses vile, vulgar language, and can therefore be interpreted as more violent. Rock, for the most part (in my experience) uses semaphores, metaphors, etc. which women find to be less vulgar/vile, more acceptable.

No reasoning here, it's just how we think. It's the difference between some guy at a bar who wants to "pick you up" saying, "Hey, let's go f**k," and getting slapped, or the same guy sitting down, spending time getting to know you, etc. The end result might be the same (fuhgeddaboudit) but there will be no face-slap forthcoming.

Remember, guys... we are complex creatures. But creatures we are. :grin: :grin:

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Intriguing... just Saturday night we were having a round-table discussion of rap music lyrics, and how it is degrading to women. Although rock music can be degrading, as well, I know exactly what blue-n-white means by the fact that rock does it in a more "subtle" manner.

Rap music by and large uses vile, vulgar language, and can therefore be interpreted as more violent. Rock, for the most part (in my experience) uses semaphores, metaphors, etc. which women find to be less vulgar/vile, more acceptable.

No reasoning here, it's just how we think. It's the difference between some guy at a bar who wants to "pick you up" saying, "Hey, let's go f**k," and getting slapped, or the same guy sitting down, spending time getting to know you, etc. The end result might be the same (fuhgeddaboudit) but there will be no face-slap forthcoming.

Remember, guys... we are complex creatures. But creatures we are. :grin: :grin:

Thanks for saying so well what I been trying to say. :bow: :thumbsup:

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And now, Musical Interlude by The Crystals...

He hit me and it felt like a kiss

He hit me but it didn't hurt me

He couldn't stand to hear me say

That I'd been with someone new

And when I told him I had been untrue

He hit me and it felt like a kiss

He hit me and I knew he loved me

Cause if he didn't care for me

I could have never made him mad

He hit me and I was glad

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I think most would agree that rap music does it more and it is much more "in your face."

nobody was ever disputing that, right? ;):)

but you have to realise that there's more than one kind of Hip Hop, and as b-f already pointed out, artists like the Beastie Boys, but also The Roots, The Fugees, etc. or a couple German bands that you've probably never heard about, aren't like that at all :)

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That's my issue with this whole thing. Yes, a lot of mainstream rap is all about the bling and the hoes, but that doesn't make all rap about the bling and the hoes. Some rock is about devil worshipping and human sacrifice, but that doesn't make all rock about those lovely topics. I just ask for the word "most" in front of the anti-rap statements, leaving open the possibility that there might be one rap act that is not about the bad stuff. The original argument that rap shouldn't be in the RnR HOF is valid.

I'm glad I could clear this up for everyone. :grin:

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nobody was ever disputing that, right? ;):)

but you have to realise that there's more than one kind of Hip Hop, and as b-f already pointed out, artists like the Beastie Boys, but also The Roots, The Fugees, etc. or a couple German bands that you've probably never heard about, aren't like that at all :)

There are exceptions to anything and everything but I will stand by my original statements about rap music.

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Intriguing... just Saturday night we were having a round-table discussion of rap music lyrics, and how it is degrading to women. Although rock music can be degrading, as well, I know exactly what blue-n-white means by the fact that rock does it in a more "subtle" manner.
And so do I. It is certainly true that rock artists, where they do occasionally promote misogynist views, do tend to be much more subtle about it. (Though the practice of adorning stages, photo-shoots,album sleeves and videos with buxom scantily-clad and voiceless mannequins isn't particularly subtle and is part of rock's heritage since long before the arrival of hip-hop...) What I was questioning was whether subtle degradation is preferable to overt degradation, if the end result is the same?

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Thank you for taking what I said out of context. I think most on here know what I meant by it. Some don't examine every single sentence and words looking for ways to put another poster down.

What sort of sad-ass does that?

I think this has become something more personal for some and if that is a case,it's a shame that they have nothing more to do than put down somebody's views just because they dislike that persons opinions.
This discussion is nothing personal, I am not "putting you down" and, do you know what? I don't even dislike your opinions: I just disagree with some of them, that's all.

I say what I say on here based on what I believe,not to make somebody look stupid.
Quite right too....

Of course those sorts of things are done by those who feel they are far superior than others when it comes to knowledge. In doing so,they often are the ones who are left looking stupid.
If that's directed at me, (which I would quite understand) or referring specifically to my remark that the "What Is Art?" debate might be "too taxing even for my mighty intellect", then I suggest that you are taking this whole thing too seriously and too personally. I put an ironic ;) in there, because I knew it was a preposterous thing to say. For the record, I'm not terribly concerned about looking stupid anyway. After (almost) two years here, I'm sure I have gone to much greater extremes to make myself look totally ridiculous.

Good day to you, sire (doffs cap, again)

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'm not talking about the kind of clothes she wears - look at that stupid girl

I'm not talking about the way she combs her hair - look at that stupid girl

The way she powders her nose

Her vanity shows and it shows

She's the worst thing in this world

Well look at that stupid girl

I'm not talking about the way she digs for gold

Well I'm talking about the way she grabs and holds

The way she talks about someone else

That she don't even know herself

She's the sickest thing in this world

Well look at that stupid girl

Well I'm sick and tired and I really have my doubts

I've tried and tried but it never really works out

Like a lady-in-waiting to a virgin queen

She bitches about things that she's never seen

It doesn't matter if she dyes her hair

Or the color of the shoes she wears

She's the worst thing in this world

Well look at that stupid girl

She purrs like a pussycat

Then she turns around and hisses back

She's the sickest thing in this world

Look at that stupid girl

Rap? Nope. The Rolling Stones. Not even subtle. :cool:

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'm not talking about the kind of clothes she wears - look at that stupid girl

I'm not talking about the way she combs her hair - look at that stupid girl

The way she powders her nose

Her vanity shows and it shows

She's the worst thing in this world

Well look at that stupid girl

I'm not talking about the way she digs for gold

Well I'm talking about the way she grabs and holds

The way she talks about someone else

That she don't even know herself

She's the sickest thing in this world

Well look at that stupid girl

Well I'm sick and tired and I really have my doubts

I've tried and tried but it never really works out

Like a lady-in-waiting to a virgin queen

She bitches about things that she's never seen

It doesn't matter if she dyes her hair

Or the color of the shoes she wears

She's the worst thing in this world

Well look at that stupid girl

She purrs like a pussycat

Then she turns around and hisses back

She's the sickest thing in this world

Look at that stupid girl

Rap? Nope. The Rolling Stones. Not even subtle. :cool:

There's a four year old boy lyin' dead with a slit throat

In your living room ha ha

What you think I'm kiddin you?

You loved him didn't you?

No!!

Bullsh$it you b*tch don't f#cking lie

What the f&cks this guys problem on the side of me

F&ck you a#$hole,yeah bite me

Kim! Kim!

I hate you! I hate you!

I swear to God I hate you!

Oh my God I love you!

How the f&ck could you do this to me?

Kim by Eminem

Any comparison?

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Ah, a point you make. Like I said before, though, judge not all of rap by the rap of the new millennium, though.

Let's try a rap from the early 80's, for example:

Broken glass everywhere

People pissing on the stairs, you know they just

Dont care

I cant take the smell, I cant take the noise

Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice

Rats in the front room, roaches in the back

Junkies in the alley with a baseball bat

I tried to get away, but I couldnt get far

Cause the man with the tow-truck repossessed my car

Chorus:

Dont push me, cause Im close to the edge

Im trying not to loose my head

Its like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder

How I keep from going under

Standing on the front stoop, hangin out the window

Watching all the cars go by, roaring as the breezes

Blow

Crazy lady, livin in a bag

Eating out of garbage piles, used to be a fag-hag

Search and test a tango, skips the life and then go

To search a prince to see the last of senses

Down at the peepshow, watching all the creeps

So she can tell the stories to the girls back home

She went to the city and got so so so ditty

She had to get a pimp, she couldnt make it on her

Own

Chorus:

Its like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder

How I keep from goin under

My brothers doing fast on my mothers t.v.

Says she watches to much, is just not healthy

All my children in the daytime, dallas at night

Cant even see the game or the sugar ray fight

Bill collectors they ring my phone

And scare my wife when Im not home

Got a bum education, double-digit inflation

Cant take the train to the job, theres a strike

At the station

Me on king kong standin on my back

Cant stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac

Midrange, migraine, cancered membrane

Sometimes I think Im going insane, I swear I might

Hijack a plane!

Chorus:

My son said daddy I dont wanna go to school

Cause the teachers a jerk, he must think Im a

Fool

And all the kids smoke reefer, I think itd be

Cheaper

If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper

I dance to the beat, shuffle my feet

Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps

Cause its all about money, aint a damn thing

Funny

You got to have a con in this land of milk and

Honey

They push that girl in front of a train

Took her to a doctor, sowed the arm on again

Stabbed that man, right in his heart

Gave him a transplant before a brand new start

I cant walk through the park, cause its crazy

After the dark

Keep my hand on the gun, cause they got me on the

Run

I feel like an outlaw, broke my last fast jaw

Hear them say you want some more, livin on a

Seesaw

Chorus:

A child was born, with no state of mind

Blind to the ways of mankind

God is smiling on you but hes frowning too

Cause only God knows what you go through

You grow in the ghetto, living second rate

And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate

The places you play and where you stay

Looks like one great big alley way

Youll admire all the number book takers

Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers

Driving big cars, spending twenties and tens

And you wanna grow up to be just like them

Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers

Pickpockets, peddlers and even pan-handlers

You say Im cool, Im no fool

But then you wind up dropping out of high school

Now youre unemployed, all null n void

Walking around like youre pretty boy floyd

Turned stickup kid, look what you done did

Got send up for a eight year bid

Now your man is took and youre a may tag

Spend the next two years as an undercover fag

Being used and abused, and served like hell

Till one day you was find hung dead in a cell

It was plain to see that your life was lost

You was cold and your body swung back and forth

But now your eyes sing the sad sad song

Of how you lived so fast and died so young

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or how about something from the new millenium?

In one single moment your whole life can turn 'round

I stand there for a minute starin' straight into the ground

Lookin' to the left slightly, then lookin' back down

World feels like it's caved in – proper sorry frown

Please let me show you where we could only just be, for us

I can change and I can grow or we could adjust

The wicked thing about us is we always have trust

We can even have an open relationship, if you must

I look at her she stares almost straight back at me

But her eyes glaze over like she's lookin' straight through me

Then her eyes must have closed for what seems an eternity

When they open up she's lookin' down at her feet

Dry your eyes mate

I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up

There's plenty more fish in the sea

Dry your eyes mate

I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts

But you've got to walk away now

It's over

So then I move my hand up from down by my side

It's shakin', my life is crashin' before my eyes

Turn the palm of my hand up to face the skies

Touch the bottom of her chin and let out a sigh

'Cause I can't imagine my life without you and me

There's things I can't imagine doin', things I can't imagine seein'

It weren't supposed to be easy, surely

Please, please, I beg you please

She brings her hands up towards where my hands rested

She wraps her fingers round mine with the softness she's blessed with

She peels away my fingers, looks at me and then gestures

By pushin' my hand away to my chest, from hers

Dry your eyes mate

I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up

There's plenty more fish in the sea

Dry your eyes mate

I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts

But you've got to walk away now

It’s over

And I'm just standin' there, I can't say a word

'Cause everythin's just gone

I've got nothin'

Absolutely nothin'

Tryin' to pull her close out of bare desperation

Put my arms around her tryin' to change what she's sayin'

Pull my head level with hers so she might engage in

Look into her eyes to make her listen again

I'm not gonna fuckin', just fuckin' leave it all now

'Cause you said it'd be forever and that was your vow

And you're gonna let our things simply crash and fall down

You're well out of order now, this is well out of town

She pulls away, my arms are tightly clamped round her waist

Gently pushes me back and she looks at me straight

Turns around so she's now got her back to my face

Takes one step forward, looks back, and then walks away

Dry your eyes mate

I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up

There's plenty more fish in the sea

Dry your eyes mate

I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts

But you've got to walk away now

It's over

I know in the past I've found it hard to say

Tellin' you things, but not tellin' straight

But the more I pull on your hand and say

The more you pull away

Dry your eyes mate

I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up

There's plenty more fish in the sea

Dry your eyes mate

I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts

But you’ve got to walk away now.

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It frustrates me and annoys me and generally pisses me off no end to have people say rap is crap when a song like this exists. You don't know anything. (sorry, I'm a bit more intolerant than my fellow SFers who get numerous :bow:s ... especially B-F for not losing patience ;) )

We've all seen the man at the liquor store beggin' for your change

The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange

He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes

"Get a job you f**king slob," is all he replies

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom that said he was in love

He said, "Don't worry about a thing, baby doll

I'm the man you've been dreaming of."

But 3 months later he say he won't date her or return her calls

And she swear, "God damn, if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls."

And then she heads for the clinic and

she gets some static walking through the door

They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner

and they call her a whore

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

I've seen a rich man beg

I've seen a good man sin

I've seen a tough man cry

I've seen a loser win

And a sad man grin

I heard an honest man lie

I've seen the good side of bad

And the downside of up

And everything between

I licked the silver spoon

Drank from the golden cup

And smoked the finest green

I stroked the fattest dimes at least a couple of times

before I broke their heart

You know where it ends, yo, it usually depends on where you start

I knew this kid named Max

who used to get fat stacks out on the corner with drugs

He liked to hang out late

he liked to get sh*t-faced and keep the pace with thugs

Until late one night there was a big gun fight and Max lost his head

He pulled out his chrome 45, talked some sh*t, and wound up dead

Now his wife and his kids are caught in the midst of all of this pain

You know it crumbles that way

at least that's what they say when you play the game

God forbid you ever had to wake up to hear the news

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to lose

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Yeah then you really might know what it's like

To have to lose

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