PSYCHOcatholic Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Okay, i posted this in News and Current Events, but i figured i dont want ANY debates in there...as well as in here, but this will give us a choice to be a little more debatable...if you get what i mean. My first subject is all this stuff about Kramer being a racist!! This was my post... "Well, lets think about this... I dont wanna debate, but i kinda want opinions here. He took it to a very LARGE extent...he took it too far. But what if he had casually been making somewhat racial jokes about black people? Thats Bad right? WHOA!!! Chris Rock and most other Black Comedians spend an entire hour making fun of white people, but its okay? If Chris Rock would have gone off on somebody for interrupting him and say it was a white person, and Chris Rock called him a Cracker! or White Trash...nobody would call that racist!! I am in NO WAY condoning Kramers behavior, but if it had been a different situation where a white comedian was making jokes about african americans...it would be racist. If a black comedian jokes about white people...its funny and not racist." Now...im in no way a racist to any religon, race, creed, or anything, im just discussing here... What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Sticking with the racism theme here... I personally think political correctness is a load of bulls*** that people who are secretly racist hide behind so nobody suspects that they are racist. That having been said, I don't think racism justifies further racism. So lets say there are some black comedians making fun of white people...as a white person, I say we should just let it go. Comedians mean no harm, and being racist back would only further the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcM Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Richards was angry that these guys were talking during his act and it caused him to go nuts. The fact that dropped the "N-bomb" so quickly would cause one to think he is a racist. A closet racist, maybe, but he outed himself the rest of the way with the rest of his rant. I am paraphrasing here, but he said something to the effect of "50 years ago we would have hung you from a tree and stuck a cork up your ass!!" There is no doubt in my mind this guy has problems. I think that maybe the only person who did not have a problem with his outburst may be Mel Gibson. Not because he agrees, but it takes the light off of him for a while. Here is the uncensored cell phone video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlrOx6GCFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Another point I'm going to make about double standards for political correctness is this: I've discussed the issue with friends, and I know some black people who feel a strong emotional reaction to the n-word, but I've never met a white man who actually feels anything when he hears the word cracker. Different backgrounds, different standards. That was the first time I'd seen the video, that guy went nuts! I'll never look at Kramer the same way again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 (edited) One thing that disturbs me is the label ' racist ' being thrown about and easily applied to persons who may make racist statements, occasionally , but no more . That label is the ultimate sucker punch from which the guilty party can rarely recover any dignity from - apologies be damned . I believe a racist ( or any 'ist'- as in a communist ) , to be properly defined , would have to be one who deeply and fundamentally believes in the credo of said 'ist' or 'ism ' . I wish people could step back and say ' you've said something racist ( or communist , etc. )' rather than going all out and calling one a racist ( etc. ) when the evidence for such a claim is based on a solitary incident . I believe in universal healthcare for all citizens of a country ( if possible ) . However , I would not appreciate , nor think applicable , the statement that I am , therefore , a communist . It isn't accurate - but does create a better buzz for those who disagree with me , and silences those who may want to agree with me, if only to a point . Richard's owes a bit more than an apology - an explanation ( after some reflection ) would be better - as his act was fueled with clearly distinquishable anger ( he has admitted as much ) . Race issues are a comedic tool and are often well delivered and entertaining . He failed miserably here , and needs to address what he was really trying to say rather than a generic apology . If he can - and tries to do so - I think the label ' Michael Richards the racist ' is an overstatement . Edited November 23, 2006 by Guest clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcM Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Good point, comrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 (edited) Thanks , Marc . I've been stewing on this for a couple of days and been wondering how to post about it . I'll add a little more food for thought : Paul Rodriquez (sp? ) , a long-time comedian who has worked there and has seen Richards' past work , describes him as an introverted and kind man who assumes a character persona when on stage . Richards , he says , is not a professional stand-up who routinely appears and makes this his bread-and-butter , but a character , name-drawing comedic actor , who likes to try out improvisational ' avante-garde material ' which is not always always successful in bringing down the house . People often expect a 'Kramer-like ' performance . Hence , he, perhaps, doesn't have the skill to deal with distractions in an appropriate way - no retakes nor rehearsals . What he can be faulted for , I believe , was not regaining some self-control and finding a way to either make a point or offer an apology at that time . Perhaps he felt that the confines of a comedy club were 'safe' enough for him to sound off . Sinbad , who was also there and knows him , said that we are all racist to some extent in our hearts - but the key , especially in comedy - is keeping a lid on these thoughts so that one doesn't offend . He stated that he holds no grudges towards Richards but would like a reasonable explanation of what he was thinking at the time . Fair enough , I think . A Rascist bastard ? Well , you be the judge . Edited November 23, 2006 by Guest clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcM Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Paul Rodriguez is a half owner of The Laugh Factory, and himself has had some racially charged comments in the past in his act. Granted, I have never heard him go on an out and out tirade like Richards did, though. He has been very outspoken in his criticisms of Richards which may be a little hypocritical. I still think that the lynching comment was the most outrageous thing he said. I think that there is definitely something going on there, but it is possible he was trying to shock the hecklers to shut them up. Boy, talk about backfiring and bad judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 (edited) That's correct , and Rodriquez has a stake in damage control . I also agree that the statement you have pointed out is clearly the most outrageous of all - and with the anger behind it - it wasn't a joke - if it was intended as such , Richards should give up stand-up as he's clearly ill-suited for the stage . As I mentioned earlier in this thread , though , is the idea that let he/she who is racism -free walk proudly and cast stones . This is , though , I'd caution , a media hit-job that has cast a local incident into a national debate - perhaps overdue - on what is acceptable and what is not when one is freely choosing to enter a comedy club or enter into a discussion with others . When networks clap in glee that they can now say 'a**' ( and then overdo it ) or cable can say 'f**K' and pat itself on the back ( all strikingly resembling junior high ) - and that won't be the end of it , then perhaps it's time for hearings on what is acceptable and what isn't , amongst the people rather than the FCC , etc. Though I doubt many people would want that with freedom of speech being a pillar of the existance and worth of the US . No ,comedy clubs need to be able to dive into our present circumstances and , hopefully , pull out that which is absurd . They are as important as any media in that respect . They do need to watch themselves and be answerable , at times , however , so as to do no harm. Edited November 23, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielj Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 http://youtube.com/watch?v=U3RjiVcIlhY The difference between Chris Rock and this Michael Richards act was that Chris actually makes funny jokes. Michael Richards was directly calling two or three men n*****s, who had been heckling him. It was absolutely uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 That has been pointed out , Dan J - have you anything else to add ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Marc and Kevin, you make complete sense. It's easy to express a knee jerk reaction to what Richards said and did, but with a little mature (and maybe experienced?) thought, I have to admit to agreeing almost completely with Kevin. Thanks for expressing it so eloquently for me Kev! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edna Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 He should seek for help or stop sniffing cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSYCHOcatholic Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I know this wasnt my generation or time if you will... But some people thought this was somewhat of an Andy Kauffman thing...til he apologized. Now, i dont know a whole lot about him...but was Andy Kaufman really like they say he was a racist, sexist pig and did he do it for Publicity. Cause it makes you wonder...When was the last time that Kramer had this kind of Publicity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTallOne Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Here's what I think: The phrases "cracker" and "white trash" no longer have any big affect on white people, because they have become generic insults. However, the word "n****er" represents hundreds of years of oppresion against the African-American race, and is not just an insult against ones skin color, but is really suggesting the black race is inferior. It is beyond me many people in the African American race use the word, but the point is a white man has no right whatsoever to utter it. Another thing is that Richard at no time has tried to salvage what he said. He had a half hearted apology on late night TV because Jerry Seinfeld urged him to do it so DVD sales would not be affected. If you say the first thing he said (the "fork" statement) as well as the racial slur, you have a lot of explaining to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious_Peaches Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 I understand Kevin's position, but I believe in my heart and soul that Richards wouldn't have said those things unless he meant them. You don't just blurt out something like that unless you are already of that opinion. Personally, I have been mad enough at a person to choke them with my bare hands, but I would never in a million years utter something like that. It's reprehensible and inexcusable. I agree with what Connor said about the difference in the derogatory terms for blacks and whites. I live in an area that has a ridiculous amount of racist attitudes (from both sides of the issue), so to see something like this really breaks my heart. Isn't there anywhere in the world where this sort of thing doesn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 The things I learn from this Web site. Until tonight I have been completely unaware that the word "cracker" meant anything besides something you'd eat with cheese or soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSYCHOcatholic Posted November 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 The things I learn from this Web site. Until tonight I have been completely unaware that the word "cracker" meant anything besides something you'd eat with cheese or soup. Whats bad is that it actually HAS to mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 Paul, that's the rub, right there. It is unfortuanate that is does mean something!! But, that is the society in which we live. I may sound cynical, but it's never really going to change. It's just human nature. This coming from a dyed in the wool "Cracker". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ombre Vivante Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 I think being "politically incorrect" offers some people the excuse to be themselves, whether that may be a racist, or being sexist, or just flat out being ignorant and stupid without the repercussions of getting called on it since political correctness is soooo gauche. Both extremes are bad in a sense that it brings out the worst in people (and I include myself because I'm part people ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 I think the word "cracker" comes from the US Slavery era where white people were "whip crackers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ombre Vivante Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 Cracker, the band, had some rockin' chunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSYCHOcatholic Posted November 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 This is what Dictionary.com had to say! politically correct - marked by or adhering to a typically progressive orthodoxy on issues involving esp. race, gender, sexual affinity, or ecology. Politically Incorrect - just the opposite Hmm...lets check Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness Lots of info there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanAm Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 We can all endlessly speculate on the motivation behind Richards' tirade at the Laugh Factory, but only he knows for certain whether or not he is a racist. IMO, Richards became irrationally angry at having his act interrupted by two hecklers and instead of using humour to defuse the tense situation, he resorted to using insults that he knew would inflict the maximum amount of emotional damage. I may be naive, but I believe his apology was sincere and not merely an attempt to mitigate the damage his outburst will have on his reputation. I believe this unpleasant and unfortunate incident clearly demonstrates he has anger management issues and should indicate to him that stand-up comedy should be permanently removed from his "Things To Do" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcM Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 I believe this unpleasant and unfortunate incident permanently removed a lot of things from his "Things To Do" list.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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