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MarcM
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..and so this is Christmas?

Yes, I guess I should have said "the battle is over" not "the war"... this is a never ending story... more than a thousand civilians died in Lebanon and these monsters of Hezbollah are celebrating the victory???? And the führers from Syria and Iran are feeling so brave...

:P

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Well, I guess it's time to weigh in with my two cents worth.

As far as the first article regarding world opinion, I couldn't agree more. I equate world opinion with the United Nations, one of the most useless and partisan organizations in the world.

General Romeo Dallaire of Canada warned the United Nations for months about the escalating tensions in Rwanda and Burundi and his fears that widespread killing could break out at any time. What did the United Nations do? Nothing. They virtually dismissed Dallaire's concerns and look what happened.

What has the United Nations or "world opinion" done about the genocide going on in the Sudan. (Genocide, I might add, being committed largely by Arab militias against black Sudanese). Nothing.

The United Nations and The European Union have been vociferous in their condemnation of Israel and strangely silent about the atrocities being committed by Hezbollah.

Israel is the only really democratic nation in the Middle East. It is surrounded by countries that want nothing less than its utter destruction. In the past, everytime Israel has made concessions or shown restraint, it has been rewarded by rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

Kofi Annan made the outrageous statement that Israel was deliberately targeting UN workers and civilians. What utter nonsense. Believe me, if Israel had been deliberately targeting civilians in Lebanon, the death toll would have been 50,000 and not six or seven hundred. And it is a little difficult to avoid civilian casualties when your "courageous" enemy hides its rocket emplacements in the midst of civilians, many of whom were aiding the Hezbollah guerillas.

As for those who suggest that violence always begets violence, did they not learn anything from history? Neville Chamberlain tried to negotiate with and appease Hitler and we ended up with millions of dead people. Initially, the United States was not going to get involved in the Second World War. For its neutrality it was rewarded with the cowardly attack on Pearl Harbour. Perhaps they should just have politely asked the Japanese to reconsider their intention to annex huge portions of American territory and kill large numbers of Americans.

I abhor violence, but I abhor moral cowardice even more. Israel and the United States are not perfect, but they are two of the greatest forces for good in the world today. If the Palestinians are tired of having their movements restricted and being treated with suspicion (my heart's breaking here), perhaps they should stop strapping bombs to their children and sending them to blow up innocent Israeli's. And if Muslims in Europe and North America don't want to be treated with suspicion, perhaps they should do more to root out the terrorists who are recruiting their children and raising money within their communities for Al Quaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah. After all, it's not Budhists, Mormons or Druids who are killing "infidels" in Bali, Spain, England, Iraq, India and The Philippines.

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I agree CanAm...most of the world's most evil men are/were cowards who recruit other people to do their dirty work while they go hide.

As a child of immigrants who came here legally, worked hard (they're now retired), obey the law and have respect for their adopted country, I think that people who immigrate to a country, enjoy all its riches and freedoms and then use that to plot against their adopted country are the lowest of the low.

I hope the British treat the terrorists whose plot they foiled like the traitors that they are.

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If the Palestinians are tired of having their movements restricted and being treated with suspicion (my heart's breaking here), perhaps they should stop strapping bombs to their children and sending them to blow up innocent Israelis.

This is an overly simplistic view to take of the situation. Collective punishment - constituting in borders, checkpoints, curfews and separation barriers - is an abuse of human rights which comes from the assumption that an entire nation of people are responsible for the actions of individual terrorists. It's akin to what happened in Northern Ireland not more than thirty years ago and it should never be allowed. It's very easy for people who enjoy all their human rights to disregard freedom of movement as inconsequential but to actually live with these encroachments on your daily life makes life incredibly difficult and forces people to live in inhumane conditions.

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It's very easy for people who enjoy all their human rights to disregard freedom of movement as inconsequential but to actually live with these encroachments on your daily life makes life incredibly difficult and forces people to live in inhumane conditions.

Sure, but I wonder why other innocent people (passengers in planes in America, workers on trains in Spain, students in buses in London, etc) should pay for that.

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^^ but the question of what the cause of their misery is is extremely subjective. some people surely blame the occupation of their land by another country so a struggle for self-determination can be seen to be natural.

^ i disagree with terrorist acts but collective punishment is not the answer and often leads to more entrenched positions, deeper bitterness and more rather than less attacks.

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i disagree with terrorist acts but collective punishment is not the answer and often leads to more entrenched positions, deeper bitterness and more rather than less attacks.

Gis, I think that puting bombs and killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people is also collective punishment. They punish a country for the president who got the highest amount of votes...

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just to clarify - the palestinians, for whose rights i am arguing, have nothing to do with al qaida.

and while your point is valid, collective punishment is a euphemistic expression describing the actions of governments rather than terrorist groups which is why they are accountable for violations of international law.

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Gisela, even though you and I come from opposite sides of the wire as such, I do think that we could make a wonderful contribution to world peace... alright, a small one... ok, not much of one at all but it'd be fun to try...

We do seem to be alone here in thinking that a little understanding of persons other than the US/Israel faction in the middle east could go a long way to solving current problems. I don't mean that in an arrogant way either, just as an observation from one who holds an unfasionable point of view...

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ahem, i also pointed out that you can't just blame the palestinians, although it really drives me crazy when i see placards in demonstrations that say "free palestine". People seem to forget that bopth sides are suffering, and they need to find a compromise if this is ever going to end. which i doubt it will

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I sympathize with Palestinians (or anyone else) who want a homeland and good life of their own.

It's the extremists who preach (and seek) the total annihilation of another race/nationality/religion who will always be the insurmountable impediment to peace in the region.

It's difficult to get behind that faction which I believe is much larger than many seem to think.

The hatred and enmity have been inbred for hundreds of years. It'll not disappear in our lifetimes (nor in our grandchildren's, I fear).

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What thoughts does this conjure up?

'World Opinion' is Worthless

By Dennis Prager

http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | If you are ever morally confused about a major world issue, here is a rule that is almost never violated: Whenever you hear that "world opinion" holds a view, assume it is morally wrong.

And here is a related rule if your religious or national or ethnic group ever suffers horrific persecution: "World opinion" will never do a thing for you. Never.

"World opinion" has little or nothing to say about the world's greatest evils and regularly condemns those who fight evil.

The history of "world opinion" regarding the greatest mass murders and cruelties on the planet is one of relentless apathy.

Ask the 1.5 million Armenians massacred by the Ottoman Turks;

or the 6 million Ukrainians slaughtered by Stalin;

or the tens of millions of other Soviet citizens killed by Stalin's Soviet Union;

or the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their helpers throughout Europe;

or the 60 million Chinese butchered by Mao;

or the 2 million Cambodians murdered by Pol Pot;

or the millions killed and enslaved in Sudan;

or the Tutsis murdered in Rwanda's genocide;

or the millions starved to death and enslaved in North Korea;

or the million Tibetans killed by the Chinese;

or the million-plus Afghans put to death by Brezhnev's Soviet Union.

Ask any of these poor souls, or the hundreds of millions of others slaughtered, tortured, raped and enslaved in the last 100 years, if "world opinion" did anything for them.

On the other hand, we learn that "world opinion" is quite exercised over Israel's unintentional killing of a few hundred Lebanese civilians behind whom hides Hezbollah - a terror group that intentionally sends missiles at Israeli cities and whose announced goals are the annihilation of Israel and the Islamicization of Lebanon. And, of course, "world opinion" was just livid at American abuses of some Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. In fact, "world opinion" is constantly upset with America and Israel, two of the most decent countries on earth, yet silent about the world's cruelest countries.

Why is this?

Here are four reasons:

First, television news.

It is difficult to overstate the damage done to the world by television news. Even when not driven by political bias - an exceedingly rare occurrence globally - television news presents a thoroughly distorted picture of the world. Because it is almost entirely dependent upon pictures, TV news is only capable of showing human suffering in, or caused by, free countries. So even if the BBC or CNN were interested in showing the suffering of millions of Sudanese blacks or North Koreans - and they are not interested in so doing - they cannot do it because reporters cannot visit Sudan or North Korea and video freely. Likewise, China's decimation and annexation of Tibet, one of the world's oldest ongoing civilizations, never made it to television.

Second, "world opinion" is shaped by the same lack of courage that shapes most individual human beings' behavior. This is another aspect of the problem of the distorted way news is presented. It takes courage to report the evil of evil regimes; it takes no courage to report on the flaws of decent societies. Reporters who went into Afghanistan without the Soviet Union's permission were killed. Reporters would risk their lives to get critical stories out of Tibet, North Korea and other areas where vicious regimes rule. But to report on America's bad deeds in Iraq (not to mention at home) or Israel's is relatively effortless, and you surely won't get killed. Indeed, you may well win a Pulitzer Prize.

Third, "world opinion" bends toward power. To cite the Israel example, "world opinion" far more fears alienating the largest producers of oil and 1 billion Muslims than it fears alienating tiny Israel and the world's 13 million Jews. And not only because of oil and numbers. When you offend Muslims, you risk getting a fatwa, having your editorial offices burned down or receiving death threats. Jews don't burn down their critics' offices, issue fatwas or send death threats, let alone act on such threats.

Fourth, those who don't fight evil condemn those who do. "World opinion" doesn't confront real evils, but it has a particular animus toward those who do - most notably today America and Israel.

The moment one recognizes "world opinion" for what it is - a statement of moral cowardice, one is longer enthralled by the term. That "world opinion" at this moment allegedly loathes America and Israel is a badge of honor to be worn proudly by those countries. It is when "world opinion" and its news media start liking you that you should wonder if you've lost your way.

I don't stand for yellow, biased, zionist journalism such as this piece either. World opinion or not, Israel is also a terrorist state and murders innocent people for the sake of their own goals. I'd be a coward to not call a spade a "spade".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

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Gisela, even though you and I come from opposite sides of the wire as such, I do think that we could make a wonderful contribution to world peace... alright, a small one... ok, not much of one at all but it'd be fun to try...

We do seem to be alone here in thinking that a little understanding of persons other than the US/Israel faction in the middle east could go a long way to solving current problems. I don't mean that in an arrogant way either, just as an observation from one who holds an unfasionable point of view...

You're not alone in this either. It might be unfashionable to Jews (because they already answer to a higher authority) and to most North Americans (since they're oblivious to what's happening over there), but it's quite a popular opinion wherever else you go.

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yes I thinks so too... :crazy:

I don't stand for yellow, biased, zionist journalism such as this piece either. World opinion or not, Israel is also a terrorist state and murders innocent people for the sake of their own goals. I'd be a coward to not call a spade a "spade".

you know your little ramble sounds a little biased itself...

the definition of "terrorism" is murdering and destroying solely for terror, i.e. to inflict fear in the general populace.

you can (and should) accuse Al-Kaida and the Hamas of terrorism, but I don't think Israel falls into that category...

and to take it further you accuse Israel to "murder" innocent people for their goals... could you explain that to me, please? I think the innocent people are the population of the Lebanon, but how did that help the Israelis to fullfil their goals?

Don't get me wrong, I'm supicious of war in any kind or form, and it's always the right thing of relativ neutral onlookers to see both sides of the story and I too don't like the article above, but you go clearly from one extreme to the other...

:P

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yes I thinks so too... :crazy:

you know your little ramble sounds a little biased itself...

the definition of "terrorism" is murdering and destroying solely for terror, i.e. to inflict fear in the general populace.

you can (and should) accuse Al-Kaida and the Hamas of terrorism, but I don't think Israel falls into that category...

and to take it further you accuse Israel to "murder" innocent people for their goals... could you explain that to me, please? I think the innocent people are the population of the Lebanon, but how did that help the Israelis to fullfil their goals?

Don't get me wrong, I'm supicious of war in any kind or form, and it's always the right thing of relativ neutral onlookers to see both sides of the story and I too don't like the article above, but you go clearly from one extreme to the other...

:P

Exactly. Murdering the innocent inhabitants of Lebanon achieved nothing in the end for Israel, except dump more blame on their side for what is currently happening. This is the sort of thing that can make almost anyone, except this bumbling administration (i.e. the US), lose patience with Israeli terrorist actions in Lebanon.

Here is another person who is seeing the situation for what it is:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/31/hagel.mideast/index.html

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Exactly. Murdering the innocent inhabitants of Lebanon achieved nothing in the end for Israel, except dump more blame on their side for what is currently happening. This is the sort of thing that can make almost anyone, except this bumbling administration (i.e. the US), lose patience with Israeli terrorist actions in Lebanon.

Here is another person who is seeing the situation for what it is:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/31/hagel.mideast/index.html

now I'm curious...

what exactly is happening currently in Israel and Lebanon?

I know the facts, but I would like to hear your interpretation of them...

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Weeks ago, Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. Their aim was to see if they could broker a deal with Israel and trade their kidnapped people. Israel thought they could just do as they please and decided to bomb southern Lebanon to bits in search of these two soldiers. No matter how aggressive their efforts were and how much they were decimating the infrastructure of Lebanon, they weren't getting anywhere near the two kidnapped soldiers. World opinion was that Israel grossly overreacted to this situation. US opinion was deafening silence.

Of course, it goes further than a couple of months ago. I'm curious myself as to why you brought up al-Qaeda and Hamas a couple of posts before when I was writing about Hezbollah and Lebanon... do you know the facts or do you use the names of separate entities interchangeably...?

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What? Being critical of Israel's actions and/or US policy in the region suddenly makes one "anti-Semitic"? Point it out to me in a English dictionary, so that I may properly understand what exactly you are trying to get at. As far as I can tell, you are wrong even if you don't admit it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=anti-Semitism

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Weeks ago, Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. Their aim was to see if they could broker a deal with Israel and trade their kidnapped people. Israel thought they could just do as they please and decided to bomb southern Lebanon to bits in search of these two soldiers. No matter how aggressive their efforts were and how much they were decimating the infrastructure of Lebanon, they weren't getting anywhere near the two kidnapped soldiers. World opinion was that Israel grossly overreacted to this situation. US opinion was deafening silence.

Of course, it goes further than a couple of months ago. I'm curious myself as to why you brought up al-Qaeda and Hamas a couple of posts before when I was writing about Hezbollah and Lebanon... do you know the facts or do you use the names of separate entities interchangeably...?

Al-Qaida and Hamas have of course nothing to do with this situation, they were just two exapmles of a "Terrorist organization" and I don't think they are to be put on the same pedestal as Israel...

and about the current situation, as I've said in a previous post, it is very important to look at both sides of the story (isn't that a song?).

Israel feels that they are surrounded by hostile or at least suspicious countrys, some of them openly demand the extermination of all Jews. and on top of that there are various Terrorist organizations that are supported by their home countries, which results in a constsant threat to the innocent Israeli people.

That's not my view, but the Israeli one...

Did they do everything right? Of course they did not!

That has to be said!

But on the other hand to call them a "Terrorist country" who "murders" innocent people and on the same hand turn a blind eye to the other side is not right either... imho

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