Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TheLizard

Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot

Recommended Posts

In any case we can't deny what America brought to the civilization in the last two centuries, not to talk about the Human Rights -along with France-. Progress, future, research, poetry, painting, writing, music, avant-garde, food, blue-jeans, Hollywood, NYC, movies, Woody Allen, industries, NASA, the Beach Boys, Michael Jackson, whatever...

In such a melting pot you can expect anything and it's almost a miracle that the result was such a civilised place.

Europe has free hospitals and social benefits, that's true. But Europe is in a very bad shape and we're used to have huge fights constantly here and there, racism, immigration, unemployment, murders, terrorism and all of those weird things... that also happen in the rest of the world.

Not to talk of South-America, Muslim countries, Africa, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why you're taking such a chippy attitude with me, just because i had the audacity to assert that, yes, America is somewhat weirder than some other places. However...

Sarah Palin was never second-in-command of anything. She was John McCain's running mate in 2008, ...
Ok, maybe "second-in-command" wasn't the right phrase to use. She was a running-mate. Please forgive my faux pas. However, it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest on the one hand that she has not enjoyed any substantial public support or influence, then on the other, that she was chosen on the basis of the substantial support-base she could guarantee for McCain.

BTW, if you think I was calling England a "nanny state" because of "access to culture, libraries, civic rights"....you're insane.
No, I didn't think that at all, and no, I'm not insane, thank you. Pretty well grounded, all in all. Not being in America, and aware that your terminolgy for such things might be different, I wasn't sure whether or not "the welfare state" would mean anything to you, or might have a different connotation, (which it evidently has). I merely listed some of the state provisions currently under attack from our own government, under the guise of challenging the perceived "nanny state".

So this tirade...

Do you think there's no culture, libraries or civil rights in the United States or better yet, there's no access to them? Granted we have a ways to go re: gay rights, but what century do you think we're currently stuck in? Looking at my calendar, it's the 21st century, but things may be different across the ol' fish pond.

You said it yourself -- you have a welfare state. I don't like welfare states and have wanted for years for our federal government to reform our own welfare system to limit and eventually end, abuses to said system. The idea that you can sit on public welfare for decades sometimes, with no desire to ever get off it, is a major, major problem, both in inner cities and more rural areas alike.

...was wholly unnecessary. It merely illustrates how wildly you managed to miss my point. I didn't (and still don't) want to talk about politics, so that was an unfortunate digression too far for me.

Briefly: in response to Viaene's slightly cheeky suggestion that America is weird, you said "America is no weirder than anywhere else". Well, my counterpoint is that there are several examples of countries less weird than America. There are lots of things weird about America the phenomenon, which is not to impugn Americans themselves, many of whom are simply delightful. I was not intending to argue that other, less weird countries are in any way superior- either politically, or in terms of quality of life, or the personal charms of their people - just that they are blander, more "middle-of-the-road", less given to any form of extremism. I happen to live in one of them. Viaene lives in another. From where I'm sitting, Australia and New Zealand are both much less weird than America. So is Denmark. Even Iceland, where they bury fish for 3 months to let it rot awhile before eating it, is less weird than America.

Your citation of our nanny state as an example of one of our "problems" serves my point really. It's a pretty bland country, where "the nanny state" is the controversial issue of the day. A "nanny state" (if it even exists, which is debatable per se) might not chime with your own political convictions, but is hardly an indication of "weirdness". It is merely an ideological disagreement between the political parties about the extent of the government's role in supporting the health and well-being of its population. It doesn't lend itself to extremes of political, patriotic or religious fervour; well, not over here it doesn't, because we're a naturally temperate people. ;) The USA, on the other hand, has a history of "humouring" - or giving credibility and a public platform to - all manner of zealots, bigots and weirdoes; the likes of the Moral Majority, the KKK, Creationists, the Manson Family, The Tea Party, A Flock Of Seagulls blahdeblahdeflippinblah. That's not to mention bomb, gun and knife-crime; there are other countries who remain relatively quiet on that front.

I can't understand why you, or anybody else, would be offended by Viaene's jestful remark. 'Cos that's all it was. There didn't appear to be any need to be defensive. Or offensive, for that matter. Or is it simply intolerable that any non-American be allowed to utter even one, tiny, fairly harmless remark, if that remark contains what might potentially be construed as an anti-american sentiment?*

(*even though it probably wasn't intended as such)

As the legendary Gibson Haynes put it: "You never know just how you look through other people's eyes" :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

However, it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest on the one hand that she has not enjoyed any substantial public support or influence, then on the other, that she was chosen on the basis of the substantial support-base she could guarantee for McCain.

No it's not. The people Palin appeals to are not the majority of conservatives/Republicans in this country. The majority of Republicans or right-leaners in this country can't stand her, and rightfully so.

You need to look at the American electorate from this perspective: 10% always vote Republican, 10% always vote Democrat. That's your "base". The other 80% of the electorate are the Centrists, Moderates, Independents. They are very, very important during election cycles because they can swing either way, and many times will vote for one party during one cycle, and then the other during the next. It depends on what the candidates are bringing and which one appeals to them the most. So appealing to that 80% is crucial.

What Sarah Palin did was guarantee John McCain 10%. That's it. McCain, before he chose her, was too moderate for the 10%. With her on the ticket, that 10% had a reason to show up and vote. They surely weren't voting for him, even though his name was at the top. So no, that 10% is not "substantial" by any reasonable metric, not when you consider that had he chosen literally anyone else, the 10% might not have voted for him, but part of that 80% would have, and the election might have been closer.

Sarah Palin is a joke, and was a joke even when she was in Alaska. No one, aside from that 10%, take her seriously, or think she has any real shot of being elected to anything other than Head Fry Cook at Denny's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find this whole discussion quite fascinating. It's interesting to listen to different perspectives on various political issues.

I think one of the problems in the world today is the prevalence of the "Us vs. Them " mentality. Political discourse has degenerated to the point where people with differing points of view hurl epithets at one another instead of intelligently debating the issues. There is so much rancour and animosity in politics today that very little of consequence seems to be achieved.

As for America's "weirdness", I can't say I find America any more or less weird than most democratic nations and it's considerably less weird than a hell of a lot of other countries (like Iraq, North Korea, China, Burma, Sudan, Pakistan and Iran to name just a few). I must confess, however, to being puzzled by American opposition to more stringent gun laws. How can anyone argue that it's sensible to allow private citizens to own semi-automatic handguns and assault weapons for personal protection? And why stop there? Why not make it legal for everyone over the age of 16 to own an RPG launcher or a flamethrower?

I suspect that most Americans are in favour of tougher gun laws, but powerful and well financed lobby groups like the NRA ensure that any meaningful legislative changes never see the light of day.

At least the gunman will spend the rest of his miserable life behind bars. Had he committed the same crime in Canada, he'd be eligible for parole after about 10 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't need to look at the American electorate at all! Because, as I mentioned earlier, I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS!

:stars:

Then why did you initiate the conversation in the first place? It would make sense that if you don't want to talk about something.....you don't talk about it. I have zero interest in American Idol, Glee, or basically any TV show that gets talked about here, so I avoid those threads. Seems simple enough.

BTW, if you're going to make a comment about something in the furtherance of a discussion, and someone responds to that comment by clarifying it or explaining it further, don't get pissy with the person who responded. It's not my problem you got involved in a discussion you didn't want to get involved in, nor is it my problem that you continued to respond to my posts when it was about a topic you say you don't want to talk about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every country is weird in its own way, it's only that we're more used to our own weirdness (or to the weirdness of countries similar to ours) that we tend to regard other countries' weirdnesses as weirder than our own country's weirdness.

Also, as Vincent Vega said, it's actually more about the little differences ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I regret putting the link about Sarah Palin in the original post. I dragged in politics where no politics should be, which makes me at least as shameless as Mrs. Palin, probably more. Six people are dead, including a nine year old girl. And I tried use that to implicate somebody whose politics I fervently disagree with. That's disgusting of me and I'm embarrassed. Please accept my apologies, everybody, for my knee-jerk reaction that led to this rather ridiculous discussion that seems to have no end in sight.

Six people are dead. A public servant, citizen, and wife is still in the hospital after being shot in the head. That's what this thread should have been about and I warped it from the outset. I'm sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I regret putting the link about Sarah Palin in the original post. I dragged in politics where no politics should be, which makes me at least as shameless as Mrs. Palin, probably more. Six people are dead, including a nine year old girl. And I tried use that to implicate somebody whose politics I fervently disagree with. That's disgusting of me and I'm embarrassed. Please accept my apologies, everybody, for my knee-jerk reaction that led to this rather ridiculous discussion that seems to have no end in sight.

Six people are dead. A public servant, citizen, and wife is still in the hospital after being shot in the head. That's what this thread should have been about and I warped it from the outset. I'm sorry.

Why are you apologizing? While she may not be directly responsible for what happened, the uptick in the violent rhetoric, which she has contributed to immensely, was. Her, along with several others who haven't been named, but just as easily could have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just saw this quote on Facebook, made me think of this convo:

“This is America, where a white Catholic male Republican judge was murdered on his way to greet a Democratic Jewish woman member of Congress, who was his friend. Her life was saved initially by a 20-year old Mexican-American gay college student, and eventually by a Korean-American combat surgeon, all eulogized by our African American President.†–Allen Ginsburg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just saw this quote on Facebook, made me think of this convo:

“This is America, where a white Catholic male Republican judge was murdered on his way to greet a Democratic Jewish woman member of Congress, who was his friend. Her life was saved initially by a 20-year old Mexican-American gay college student, and eventually by a Korean-American combat surgeon, all eulogized by our African American President.†–Allen Ginsburg

:bow: :bow: :bow:

...some of you, people, don't know just how lucky you are being born, raised and/or living in America...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Belgium! They started a country and nobody came :cool:

I admit, I don't get that reference... :confused:

our clichés of Belgium are more along the line of fries, chocolate and completely lit highways ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you apologizing? While she may not be directly responsible for what happened, the uptick in the violent rhetoric, which she has contributed to immensely, was. ....

In writing "contributed to immensely" are you referring to the uptick in the number of death threats she and her family are experiencing, as a result of all the negative press she is receiving for having nothing to do with the Arizona shootings? Ever received a single death threat? Imagine it happening daily for you and every member of your family, for merely having the gall to voice an opinion of a political nature or being the son or daughter of one who has. If people really want to spread civility throughout the political landscape in America, it would behoove some bigger wigs than Tim (who is a Grand Poobah here) to apologize for their knee-jerk accusations as well. The very thought of Palin conspiring to covertly send death threats to another politician - after what she has seen and heard since being on the ticket with McCain - is ludicrous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...