Metal - Heavy and Otherwise

[Carl]

I've always been intrigued by Metal, even though I don't like it - except the drums. Those drums are ferocious.

The burn-outs in high school who listened to Iron Maiden and Judas Priest made me think it was music for the sub-literate, but I've since learned otherwise. It's actually very deep and often based on literary works. And, it endures.

We asked the author of Precious Metal our 10 burning questions, and he came back with some very interesting answers.

Check out our 10 Metal Questions.

[Skuff]

I've never really liked metal. Just everything about it. (except the drums, like you said) I just don't understand the attraction to the music. It's just not my cuppa tea I guess!

[TheLizard]

Cool interview, I'll have to look that book up. I do enjoy me some metal.

[MindCrime]

Age: 14

Reg: Jan/22/06 Sun

So you were 9 or 10 when you joined?

[edna]

I liked the interview...

And I like some some metal... is Bob seger considered as metal?

Some Deep pruple and Led Zepp...

[chutzpah]

That was a good interview...I'm going to check out that book too...Deep Purple and Led Zepplin are basically blues...Blackmore and Page are blues guitarists (I think Blackmore's been playing polka music lately)Steve Morse,Deep Purple's current guitarist is a blues guitarist... And Bob Seger? Metal?

[RockyRaccoon]

I've always been a metal fan. I like just about every type of metal too, aside from the really really heavy stuff (I'm referring to Amon Amarth, Job For A Cowboy and the like) and what's dubbed as "hardcore" (such as Devil Wears Prada, Texas In July etc.). I am a fan of Lamb Of God, All That Remains, As I Lay Dying and Devildriver and so on and so forth. I've never thought of it as intellectual music in the sense that most people see it. The musicianship can be very intriguing. Songs in keys that are almost never used, in tunings that are sometimes very interesting. And I think there's nothing that invigorates someone more than a kickass riff in a song (see "Grave Of Opportunity" by Unearth or "Laid To Rest" by Lamb Of God). However, I do have to be in a certain mood to listen to metal. I can't be tired or about to sleep or something.

I am, also, a closeted hair metal fan. It was one of the first genres I ever discovered and I got deep into it. I own "The Very Best Of Dokken" and am damn proud of it .

[Ombre Vivante]

FLYYYYYYYY FLYYYYYY FLY TO THE ANGELS

I'm circumspect of the intelligence of new Country, Ranchera/Norteno, and lady gaag fans

[Tenacious_Peaches]

SLAUGHTER!

I was a country snob before I moved to Georgia. I then realized that shutting out an entire genre of music because of my own uninformed preconceived notions goes against my general stance of being an open minded being. I dig some new country. I'll fight you to the death over my beloved Sugarland.

I is smart. I like country. Does that mean you doubt my intelligence? If so, I cordially invite you to smooch on my sweet round bee-hind, my darling BA.

[Ombre Vivante]

Babes, you can do no wrong by liking new Country in my eyes.

Slaughter should do a new Country album

[Ombre Vivante]

I don't think Metal owes influence to Punk. Metal is all about the Classic Rock and the harder stuff, junk such as Blue Cheer, Led Zep, The Stones. The structured form of Metal is nothing like the freewheeling/d.i.y. form of Punk. Also, Goth and Metal? Oil and water. Goth does owe a lot of its influence to Punk, Post Punk, and New Wave. Black Metal ain't Goth just 'cause some of those dudes wear the same clown make-up. Clan Of Xymox isn't Black Metal and Type-O Negative isn't Goth. You can pull a Sisters Of Mercy on us and take the band in a different direction - you can go from Goth to Black Metal and back whenever you see fit. Marlin Mason ain't Goth; that dork is a neomaxizoomdweebie with white contacts - he's funny as hell, though.

Thrash Metal is where the action is: can anyone name a band that sounded like Metallica before Kill 'Em All came out?

[MindCrime]

Thrash Metal is where the action is: can anyone name a band that sounded like Metallica before Kill 'Em All came out?

Iron Maiden to an extent.

[Ombre Vivante]

Which album? I'm getting it anyway

[Tenacious_Peaches]

Babes, you can do no wrong by liking new Country in my eyes.

[edna]

I is smart. I like country.

I love country... .cool:

[Lucky]

I am country.

[MindCrime]

I used to live in the country side

[Batman]

my favorite artifical butter-flavored spread is Country Crock if that counts for anything

[blind-fitter]

I don't think Metal owes influence to Punk. Metal is all about the Classic Rock and the harder stuff, junk such as Blue Cheer, Led Zep, The Stones. The structured form of Metal is nothing like the freewheeling/d.i.y. form of Punk. Also, Goth and Metal? Oil and water. Goth does owe a lot of its influence to Punk, Post Punk, and New Wave. Black Metal ain't Goth just 'cause some of those dudes wear the same clown make-up. Clan Of Xymox isn't Black Metal and Type-O Negative isn't Goth. You can pull a Sisters Of Mercy on us and take the band in a different direction - you can go from Goth to Black Metal and back whenever you see fit. Marlin Mason ain't Goth; that dork is a neomaxizoomdweebie with white contacts - he's funny as hell, though.

Thrash Metal is where the action is: can anyone name a band that sounded like Metallica before Kill 'Em All came out?

You know, for a fella who likes to give the impression he knows everything, you can't half talk some tommyrot.

You talk about genres as if they were unnegotiable, strictly defined by inflexible characteristics and situated at a fixed point in time. In reality, genres are constantly subject to external influences which cause re-evaluation and re-definition of terms at various points along their timeline. Genres experience peaks and troughs in commercial popularity, which tend to be the moments when they experience redefinition (caused by media interest in the phenomenon, which reinforces stereotypes) and the imitation factor (those who style themselves in a particular way to conform to such trends)and divergence, spawning sub-genres and cross-over genres in the process, when the stylings of a prevailing trend are applied to other musical genres. For instance; both "punk rock" and "metal" are genres which have existed for over 40 years, and have experienced peaks of commercial interest and cultural significance, which have effected re-evaluations and redefinitions of the genres. Inevitably, there have been times when one has influenced the other to some significant degree.

It is an absolute nonsense to suggest that the influence is one-way traffic (as you state in your first sentence), and I'm happy to provide examples to set the record straight.

You enthusiastically cite "thrash metal" and Metallica as "where the action is". Yet Metallica, and thrash metal, are precisely examples of a substrand of Metal influenced by punk rock. From their inception, Metallica's influences were bands from the New Wave Of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM): "a heavy metal movement that started in the late 1970s, in Britain, and achieved international attention by the early 1980s. Sometimes compared to Beatlemania, the era developed as a reaction in part to the decline of early heavy metal bands such as Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. NWOBHM bands toned down the blues influences of earlier acts, incorporated elements of punk, increased the tempo, and adopted a "tougher" sound, taking a harder approach to its music. It was a scene directed almost exclusively at heavy metal fans. The era is considered to be a major foundation stone for the extreme metal genres with acts such as the American Thrash Metal band Metallica citing NWOBHM bands like Saxon, Motörhead, Diamond Head, and Iron Maiden as a major influence on their musical style." (Wikipedia)

In the aftermath of the punk rock explosion in the UK, there was a significant cross-over between punk and metal, both genres tending to be covered in great detail by the same weekly music paper, Sounds, whilst the other papers remained sniffily aloof, once punk had shot its credibility bolt. The genres had common ground: appealing primarily to adolescent/young adult males whose tribal instinct was to distance themselves from respectable/mainstream society. The NWOBHM, which also included Def Leppard,(Sex Pistols fans), Tygers of Pan Tang (another influence on early Metallica and featuring, on guitar, an ex-member of early UK punks Penetration) and a restyled Judas Priest (newly enthused about "Breaking The Law"), undeniably drew from the well of punk rock.

Whilst Metallica's first album may well be exhilaratingly groundbreaking, that does not mean it came from nowhere. As well as being significantly influenced by the NWOBHM, early Metallica is clearly preceded by the likes of Killing Joke (whose debut album is a widely-acknowledged precursor to the industrial and doom-rock genres) and Discharge, probably the first significantly popular band to employ "thrash" as a modus operandum. Both punk bands, incidentally, albeit significantly different from one another in style and substance.

Another band strongly influenced by the NWOBHM and by the thrash music of Discharge was VENOM, who coined the term "Black Metal" as the title of their debut album, which was subsequently adopted for an entire genre of thrash-influenced metal incorporating apocalyptic and occult imagery.

The early 80s UK anarcho-punk scene spawned a crusty offshoot - people interested in thrash/black-metal and political consciousness - which manifested itself in the influential likes of Napalm Death (in the UK) and Corrosion Of Conformity (in the USA), and ultimately spawned new punk/metal-rooted genres such as "grind-core".

When a new ideology/trend gains support, achieves momentum and ultimately attains the "critical mass" required to challenge and supplant the dominant ideology, this is known as a "paradigm shift". The most notable "recent" example of a paradigm shift in the world of rock music occurred in the early 90s, when the arrival of "grunge" wiped out "hair-metal" almost overnight. The term "grunge" had originally been coined to loosely describe a motley assortment of (essentially) punk rock bands, populated by punks/alt.rockers, motivated by interests in punk (both its music and its perceived ideology), who happened to also dig some classic metal/rock and naturally incorporated aspects of these into their musical arsenal. Thereafter, aspects of punk music, ideology and lyrical subject matter, which had previously existed only on the margins of public awareness, were subsequently employed by hugely popular and relatively mainstream rock bands (such as Pearl Jam, Foo Fighters, not to mention Green Day, My Chemical Romance) who have themselves become significantly influential. This, I contend, clearly demonstrates that "punk" has had its effect on the evolution of "metal". You might argue that the bands referred to above are not "metal", therefore my case is undermined, but that would be missing the point. A punk-rooted genre supplanted a metal-rooted genre so devastatingly that many metal/rock artists - even giants like Iron Maiden - were forced to take stock and reinvent themselves, in order to survive in a changing landscape, and thus "heavy metal" and heavy guitar-based rock, in general, took a turn in a different direction. Thus, in its current state, "metal" has been subject to the influence of "punk".

[Ombre Vivante]

Hahah. Good call on Killing Joke. I only have a couple of their 80s albums (Night Time being one of them), a compilation, and that's it. However, I don't hear the Punk influence. Just because it's faster and louder doesn't make something Punk-influenced. If that were the case, then Chicago would be Ska-influenced because they have a brass section. Both are under the large umbrella of "Rock," but they split-off into their own species. They might've converged later on in the 90s and 2000s, but I was thinking to the 70s and 80s

[blind-fitter]

"Night Time" was Joke's fifth album, by which time they had regrettably started going commercial/downhill. It's the first two albums "Killing Joke" and"What's This For?" where you would look for the bleak, brutal, intensity and menace that would influence Metallica, amongst others. Killing Joke were at that time (1981, when I first saw them) as punk as f*ck, and no mistake.

For the benefit of those who haven't heard Discharge before:

"Never Again" released in 1981

"State Violence State Control" (1982)

Your "therefore Chicago must be a ska band" point is a totally spurious red herring. Naturally Chicago cannot be considered "ska" just because of the presence of a brass section: the presence of brass has never been a defining characteristic of "ska", which refers to a particular rhythm characteristic of Jamaican music in the early/mid 60s. In the course of a few years "Ska" would evolve variations, such as bluebeat, rocksteady and ultimately reggae. The presence of brass in many (but by no means all) original (i.e. genuine) ska recordings can be attributed to the fact that many Jamaican ska musicians had learnt their chops in the 1950s, in swing/jazz bands who fused the sounds of New Orleans and Cuba with the rhythms and styles of their own folk tradition.

Punk and metal have variousstylistic similarities and utilise broadly the same means of production. Also, they often appeal to the same demographic; thus, they frequently meet and have hybrid babies. The same cannot be said for "yacht rock" and West Indian folk music, I dare say.

Yeah, anyway, just because it's faster and louder, doesn't mean it's "punk-influenced". True enough. But I'm not making this ******* up, just bringing to your attention stuff which I know to be true, through being feverishly interested in music for the last 30 odd years. I am not speculating that Metallica were initially inspired by the NWOBHM, Killing Joke and Discharge; these are all examples of known fact, based on statements of the band - straight from the horse's mouth as it were - in contemporaneous interviews, and which could, if necessary, be substantiated by research, if you choose not to believe me.

My point is that punk and metal have co-existed for decades and crossed paths on various occasions, most notably in the late 70s when punk's intervention led to a rebirth of "Heavy Metal" in somewhat different form (not my opinin, but a widely acknowledged phenomenon) and again around the turn of the 90s, when the essentially "punk-rooted" genre of "grunge" transplanted hair-metal as the music of choice for a new generation of fans/musicians hell-bent on the joy of loud guitars, and brought with it some remnants of punk/alternative rock ideologies which had hitherto been absent. But, man, even some of the hair-metal stuff had punk influences too....remember Motley Crue, Hanoi Rocks?

There have been several other examples of punk influences metal influences punk: skate-core for one, began as a predominantly punk genre, but evolved towards metal as its early exponents (e.g. Suicidal Tendencies, Dirty Rotten Imbeciles) grew in stature, weight and musical proficiency.

Fact is, pretty much every hugely successful and massively influential heavy rock band of the last 20 years, from Guns And Roses, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Nirvana, Metallica...gad, even Def Leppard... acknowledge punk rock as a formatve influence upon them. I don't know what you find so hard to grasp about the notion that "punk" has at some point or another, influenced "metal". The examples are absolutely everywhere.

[Ombre Vivante]

I don't hear "the Punk influence" in Metal, what's so hard about comprehending something as simple as that? In passing - just for my own amusement - here's the blurb from allmusic with regards to Hard Rock:

Hard rock is a term that's frequently applied to any sort of loud, aggressive guitar rock, but for these purposes, the definition is more specific. To be sure, hard rock is loud, aggressive guitar rock, but it isn't as heavy as heavy metal, and it's only very rarely influenced by punk (though it helped inspire punk). Hard rock generally prizes big, stadium-ready guitar riffs, anthemic choruses, and stomping, swaggering backbeats; its goals are usually (though not universally) commercial, and it's nearly always saturated with machismo. With some bands, it can be difficult to tell where the dividing line between hard rock and heavy metal falls, but the basic distinction is that ever since Black Sabbath, metal tends to be darker and more menacing, while hard rock (for the most part) has remained exuberant, chest-thumping party music. Additionally, while metal riffs often function as stand-alone melodies, hard rock riffs tend to outline chord progressions in their hooks, making for looser, more elastic jams should the band decide to stretch out instrumentally. Like heavy metal, hard rock sprang from the mid-'60s intersection of blues-rock and psychedelia pioneered by artists like Cream, Jimi Hendrix, and the Jeff Beck Group. Blues-rock and psychedelia were both exploring the limits of electric amplification, and blues-rock was pushing the repeated guitar riff center stage, while taking some of the swing out of the blues beat and replacing it with a thumping power. Hard rock really came into its own at the dawn of the '70s, with the tough, boozy rock of the Rolling Stones (post-Brian Jones) and Faces, the blues-drenched power and textured arrangements of Led Zeppelin, the post-psychedelic rave-ups of Deep Purple, and the loud, ringing power chords of the Who (circa Who's Next) setting the template for much of what followed. Later in the decade, the lean, stripped-down riffs of AC/DC and Aerosmith, the catchy tunes and stage theatrics of Alice Cooper and Kiss, and the instrumental flash of Van Halen set new trends, though the essential musical blueprint for hard rock remained similar. Arena rock also became a dominant force, stripping out nearly all blues influence and concentrating solely on big, bombastic hooks. During the '80s, hard rock was dominated by glossy pop-metal, although Guns N' Roses, the Black Crowes, and several others did present a grittier, more traditionalist alternative. Old-fashioned hard rock became a scarce commodity in the post-alternative rock era; after grunge, many guitar bands not only adopted a self-consciously serious attitude, but also resisted the urge to write fist-pumping, arena-ready choruses. Still, the '90s did produce a few exceptions, such as Oasis, Urge Overkill, and the serious but anthemic Pearl Jam.

Not a mention of Punk anywhere.

Here's the summary on Heavy Metal:

Of all rock & roll's myriad forms, heavy metal is the most extreme in terms of volume, machismo, and theatricality. There are numerous stylistic variations on heavy metal's core sound, but they're all tied together by a reliance on loud, distorted guitars (usually playing repeated riffs) and simple, pounding rhythms. Heavy metal has been controversial nearly throughout its existence -- critics traditionally dismissed the music as riddled with over-the-top adolescent theatrics, and conservative groups have often protested what they perceive as evil lyrical content. Still, despite -- or perhaps because of -- those difficulties, heavy metal has become one of the most consistently popular forms of rock music ever created, able to adapt to the times yet keep its core appeal intact. For all its status as America's rebellion soundtrack of choice, heavy metal was largely a British creation. The first seeds of heavy metal were sown in the British blues movement of the '60s, specifically among bands who found it hard to adjust to the natural swing of American blues. The rhythms became more squared-off, and the amplified electric instruments became more important, especially with the innovations of artists like the Kinks, the Who, Jimi Hendrix, Cream, and the Jeff Beck Group. Arguably the first true metal band, however, was Led Zeppelin. Initially, Zep played blues tunes heavier and louder than anyone ever had, and soon created an epic, textured brand of heavy rock that drew from many musical sources. Less subtle but perhaps even more influential was Black Sabbath, whose murky, leaden guitar riffs created a doomy fantasy world obsessed with drugs, death, and the occult. Following the blueprint laid down by Zep and Sabbath, several American bands modified heavy metal into more accessible forms during the '70s: the catchy tunes and outrageous stage shows of Alice Cooper and Kiss; the sleazy boogie of Aerosmith; and the flashy guitar leads and wild party rock of Van Halen (not to mention the distinctively minimalist grooves of Australia's AC/DC). In the late '70s, a cache of British bands dubbed the New Wave of British Heavy Metal (including Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and Motorhead) started playing metal faster, leaner, and with more menace than ever before. They helped influence a new American metal scene known as thrash in the '80s, which took shape as a reaction to metal's new mainstream pop breakthrough, which came courtesy of Def Leppard's Pyromania. Metal enjoyed its greatest presence on the charts during the '80s, thanks to a raft of glammed-up pop-metal bands, but thrash bands played complex riffs at breakneck speed, sometimes dispensing with vocal melody altogether. Thrashers like Metallica and Megadeth built rabid cult followings that pushed them into the mainstream around the same time that grunge wiped pop-metal off the charts. Mainstream metal in the '90s centered around a new hybrid called alternative metal, which (in its most commercially potent form) combined grinding thrash and grunge influences with hip-hop and industrial flourishes, though it broke with metal's past in downplaying the importance of memorable riffs. Meanwhile, the underground grew harsher and bleaker, producing two similar, thrash-derived styles known as death metal and black metal, which produced some of the most abrasive, intense, hyperspeed music and graphic shock tactics the metal world had yet witnessed.

Not a mention of Punk, as I understand it.

How about New Wave of British Heavy Metal?

The New Wave of British Heavy Metal re-energized heavy metal in the late '70s and early '80s. By the close of the '70s, heavy metal had stagnated, with its biggest stars (Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath) either breaking away from the genre or sinking in their own indulgence, while many of its midlevel artists were simply undistinguished, churning out bluesy hard-rock riffs. The NWOBHM kicked out all of the blues, sped up the tempo, and toughened up the sound, leaving just a mean, tough, fast, hard metallic core. It didn't make any attempts to win a wide audience — it was pure metal, made for metal fans. Perhaps that's the reason why it's at the foundation of all modern-day metal: true metalheads either listened to this, or to bands like Metallica, which were inspired by bands like Diamond Head.

"Punk influence"? Nope.

A summary on Hardcore Punk:

The most rigid and extreme variation of punk rock, Hardcore Punk, was primarily an American sensation that took shape in Los Angeles and New York, with small, individual scenes dominating the east and west coasts soon after. Washington DC, Boston, and San Francisco played massive roles in the growth of the genre. Emerging in the early '80s, with the ideals of traditional punk firmly in tow, the blueprint for Hardcore was simple: play it louder, play it harder, and play it faster. The music was relentless, the songs were brief, the riffs were basic, the vocals were shouted or screamed, and the records looked (and sounded) like they were made in someone's basement. Many actually were, and the do-it-yourself (D.I.Y.) aesthetic that was later embraced by grunge and indie rock traces back to the early days of hardcore. Black Flag's Greg Ginn, Dead Kennedys' Jello Biafra, and Minor Threat's Ian MacKaye and Jeff Nelson started influential labels Alternative Tentacles, SST, and Dischord on shoestring budgets in order to put out their respective band's 7" records and home-recorded cassettes. Hardcore shows were often promoted with photocopied flyers, fanzines, and by word of mouth, as the underground fan base became increasingly devoted. For many, the term "hardcore" became a way of life, synonymous with shaved heads, slam dancing (later, moshing), sociopolitical ideals, and a stern attitude. Hardcore kept going into the '90s without ever breaking into the mainstream, though bands influenced by the hardcore aesthetic (including Nirvana and Green Day) became major rock stars, and former hardcore punkers like Bob Mould, Henry Rollins, Mike Watt, Ian McKaye, and Dinosaur Jr.'s J Mascis became alternative icons. After spawning various similar-minded genres — skate punk, speed metal, thrash, grunge, sludge metal, and metalcore, among others — hardcore continued to flourish on a smaller scale through the 2000s.

... aaaaand they do mention Metal way at the end there... but stuff like Skatepunk? Marginal, guy. Yacht Rock probably has a larger grouping of bands and artists that could be loosely tied to Metal if we were to go that far back. Hell, Michael Bolton was a Metal singer at one time hahahah

[blind-fitter]

... but stuff like Skatepunk? Marginal, guy. Yacht Rock probably has a larger grouping of bands and artists that could be loosely tied to Metal if we were to go that far back.

You're bloody good at missing the point aren't you? I mentioned skate-core merely as an example of a genre in which punk and metal music and styles have cross-pollinated, influenced one another to spawn a new genre. It might not be the most famous genre, but it certainly exists (or did so) on an international scale. I could just as easily have cited "grind-core", which being British and not a skater, is somewhat easier for me to relate to.

I then mentioned "yacht rock" in the context of your spurious analogy of referring to Chicago as ska on account of ther brass section. It is perfectly reasonable to compare punk and metal, and analyse the relationship between them; there are significant musical and cultural parallels between the two, and countless examples of sub-genres resulting from hybrids of the two. The same can not be said for Chicago /yacht rock and Jamaican ska, as they share very little common ground, in the same way that Norwegian Black Metal bears minimal comparison with South African Kwela; even though both may feature electric guitars and foreign-language vocals, there is infinitesimally small "cross-over potential".

Anyway, i digress wildly.

In trying to pin down some evidence of Metallica being strongly influenced by British punk (and by the NWOBHM,which was itself, a group of metal bands influenced to some degree by punk), I discovered, conveniently, that in 1998 Metallica released a "covers album" ("Garage Inc."; check it out), precisely to reveal their roots and inspirations. Well, bugger me with a plastic fish fork if it doesn't open (Disc 1 Track 1) with a cover of "Free Speech For The Dumb" by Discharge. It's followed by a track by NWOBHM band Diamond Head. (Track 5 is a Misfits cover, btw, who were something like a punk band...ish). Closing track of Disc 1 is another Discharge cover,"The More I See".

Onto Disc 2; a collection of covers Metallica recorded in their early years and which featured as B sides of their early releases. Well, frig me frantically and tell me it's Friday, if Track 3 isn't a cover of Killing Joke's "The Wait"(from their debut album). Track 11, much to my pleasant surprise, is a cover of another UK punk band, those dirty bastards The Anti-Nowhere League and their lewd, crude anthem "So What?" (This I've got to hear). Man, these Metallica guys must have been simply gagging for that UK punk in the early 80s.

Ha! Ha! Now i only need to demonstrate that Motorhead, Slayer, Venom, Anthrax and Megadeth were similarly keen on/iterested in/inspired by UK punk and thrash music, and my point is made.

[blind-fitter]

Jeffery John "Jeff" Hanneman (born January 31, 1964) is best known as the lead and rhythm guitarist as well as a founding member of the American thrash metal band Slayer. Hanneman grew up in Los Angeles in a family of war veterans, and his fascination with warfare is attributed to his upbringing. His interest in the subject of war pertains to much of his lyrical material including the song "Angel of Death".

Influenced by punk music growing up, Hanneman stated that the genre influenced Slayer's sound to make and create a faster and more aggressive approach.

[blind-fitter]

Why on earth would Megadeth do a cover version of the Sex Pistols "Anarchy In The Uk"? And rename it "Anarchy In The USA"/ And include it on their album "So Far, So Good, So What?". Well, I don't know, but they did.