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TheLizard

Abortion Doctor Killed In Church

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(CNN) -- A 51-year-old man was in a Kansas jail Monday, charged with first-degree murder in the killing of a physician whose women's clinic frequently took center stage in the debate over abortion, authorities said.

Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed while serving as an usher at his Wichita, Kansas, church Sunday morning, according to police. Tiller was one of the few U.S. physicians who still performed late-term abortions and had survived a 1993 shooting outside his clinic.

Scott Roeder from the Kansas City, Kansas, area is being held without bond in the Sedgwick County Adult Detention Facility, according to the sheriff's office Web site. He is also charged with two counts of aggravated assault.

"This is a tragedy for the Tiller family. We feel so badly about that," Clarence Roeder, Scott's uncle, said in a statement provided to CNN affiliate KMBC. "That Scott would murder the doctor in the Lutheran Church. We are also Lutherans, and it adds a double touch of sadness and irony."

Roeder is expected to appear in court early this week, law enforcement officials said.

The attack drew condemnation from Tiller supporters, from some of those who tried to shut down his practice and from President Obama, who had urged Americans to seek "common ground" on the divisive issue just two weeks ago.

"However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," Obama said in a statement issued by the White House.

The shooting prompted U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to direct federal marshals to "offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation," according to a statement from the Department of Justice.

Tiller was killed shortly after 10 a.m. Sunday. Police found him lying dead in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, where he had been serving as an usher.

Witnesses provided a description of the gunman's car and a license plate number, said Wichita police spokesman Gordon Bassham. Police stopped a blue Ford Taurus matching the description about three hours later in Gardner, about 30 miles southwest of Kansas City, and arrested the driver.

"Other than the description the Wichita Police Department put out, we wouldn't have paid any particular attention to him. He was following all traffic laws and everything," said Lt. Mike Pfhannestiel of the Johnson County Sheriff's Office. "We didn't find a weapon on him. We did not have a weapon on him."

"We think we have the right person arrested," said Wichita police Detective Tom Stoltz. "We will investigate this suspect to the Nth degree -- his history, his family, his associates -- and we are just in the beginning stages of that."

Though the investigation is still under way, he said, "At this time we feel this is an act of an isolated individual."

Tiller had practiced medicine for nearly 40 years, said Peter Brownlie, president of the Kansas City-based regional Planned Parenthood office.

The doctor and his staff had been picketed for years, with some activists distributing leaflets around his neighborhood, Brownlie said. His clinic suffered serious damage from a bomb in the mid-1990s, and he was shot through both arms in 1993 by an anti-abortion activist who is now in federal prison.

In a written statement issued through Tiller's lawyers, his family -- his wife, four children and 10 grandchildren -- said their loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America."

No motive for the killing was immediately known. If Tiller's killing stemmed from his work, he would be the fourth U.S. physician killed over abortion since 1993. Leading anti-abortion groups condemned his shooting, emphasizing that they wanted to shut down Tiller's practice by legal means.

During the 1990s, three doctors who performed abortions were slain in high-profile cases.

In 1998, a sniper killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in his Amherst, New York, home. Anti-abortion activist James Kopp was later arrested in France and is serving life in prison.

In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and a volunteer escort were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida. Paul Hill, a former minister, was convicted in the killings and executed in 2003.

And in 1993, another doctor, David Gunn, was shot to death outside another Pensacola clinic. His killer, Michael Griffin, is serving a life sentence.

In addition, a nurse at a Birmingham, Alabama, clinic was maimed and an off-duty police officer was killed in a 1998 bombing by Eric Rudolph, who included abortion among his list of anti-government grievances.

Rudolph admitted to that attack and three other bombings -- including the 1996 attack on the Olympic Games in Atlanta, Georgia -- and is serving life in prison.

Pro-life? Obviously not.

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Yes, my SF friends, it is a tragedy that this human heart was stilled. A tragedy of unspeakable horror.

Whose violent death at the hands of self-appointed executioners will you mourn tomorrow? There will be thousands ....

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This was not the first man to be killed or injured in the name of "life". That's what I can't wrap my brain around.

But then there is this irony to consider; why is it such a easy, simple, insignificant event to wrap one's brain around when the murder is in the name of "choice?"

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Because abortion isn't murder.

Tim, my man, I don't know what you have been fed, but it is blocking your thought pathways.

Google "late term abortion" or "partial birth abortion" and read an outline of the "medical procedure." Sure sounds like someone gets their brains sucked out to me! This doctor was one of its leading practioners.

I certainly don't think his death was justified, but then ... I don't feel anyone's is when at the will of another person.

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Abortion doesn' t mean killing a child, nor a baby, nor a fetus. Sometimes it means saving a mother' s life or avoiding a sick and unhappy person to live.

Many among those who condemn the removal of an embryo and call it murder are also those who believe pedophilia -for instance, the recent scandals about child abuse by Catholic priests- is not a sin...

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Of course the beginning seeds of legalized abortion had merit; saving the life of a physically hindered woman, removing the perpetual reminder of a rape or incest experience, sparing the lifelong suffering of a profoundly deformed human being. These were causes for which an estimated 200 women a year lost their lives to "back alley" abortions prior to 1973, in America. Since legalization an average of 1 million babies a year have been aborted. Upon Googling "reasons for abortion in the USA" one finds that only 7% of abortions since the Roe v Wade ruling are due to the seedling causes of the horror of women's deaths that Roe was to eliminate. You do the math ... that means since 1973 an estimated 930,000 babies a year have been denied life due to their inconvenience and the strain they will put upon the mother's or father's status quo. This inconvenience that, in truth, should have been considered prior to the parties involving themselves in activity that results in formation of a human being. And as an aside to those who say an embryo is not really a human being: when the American Bald Eagle was on the endangered species list, laws were enacted making it a severely punishable crime to destroy an eagle's egg. What a silly law! Those weren't eagles!

I am an independent thinker. I despise organized religion that tries to foment sheep-like acceptance to this doctrine or that doctrine. I despise any and all organizations that attempt to short circuit independent thought through emotional rhetoric instead of logical meditations upon truth, simply because they feel they have been given the legitimate mandate to do so. I despise those who sycophantically do not care to consider their own thought processes any further than to adopt arguments espoused by others simply because they admire the seemingly acceptable credibility of those others. I lost a grandchild to abortion. I still totally love my son, but he knows he was stupid. And he knows his first child will never have the opportunities he and his subsequent children have had. We have worked together on his healing of self-loathing for buying into what many consider a good choice. He and his girlfriend bought into Planned Parenthood's multi-billion dollar industry propaganda, pamphlets of the hell-bound horrors awaiting a young couple who progress toward an “unwanted†child. Pamphlets, interestingly, that are worded very much like those printed by evangelical religious denominations to be handed out on street corners. My son and his girlfriend were duped 15 years ago. He knows the reality now. Clear-minded thinking and education are the keys to ending this slaughter. Not crisp, trendy phrases that condone an act that, to the small life being formed, is as barbaric and profoundly unacceptable as the death of this doctor in Kansas.

I personally believe the 7% of imperiled women seeking solutions from Planned Parenthood or similar agencies today, for whom Roe was enacted, deserve all the aid and comfort we can give them and that no woman should ever suffer as a result of a pregnancy out of her control. But I also think that many of us who overtly condone abortion as nothing other than a choice one makes, like going grocery shopping - "Do I or don't I, it's about me, my desire at this moment and my right to make that decision .." - with operating room clean rhetoric and blithely adopted justification must honestly look at those other 93% of the cases and say, "Your choice is one previously made ... now you must bear the consequences of that choice." Isn't that, after all, the reality of life?

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musical interlude

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love

He said "Don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of"

But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call

And she sweared "god d*mn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls"

And she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the door

They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore!

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like

Then you really might know what it's like...

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On another side of this multi-faceted argument are the couples who pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to fertility specialists to try and become pregnant by means other than natural. And then the issue of surrogacy is becoming more predominant, with even big name celebrities opting for that rather than subjecting their own bodies to a pregnancy.

It's such a weird dynamic - you've got girls/women who get pregnant and abort because they can't give their babies any kind of a life to speak of, then you've got those who can't get pregnant - who want to - and pay a doctor to play God to make it happen.

Does anyone else see the obvious?

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Upon first read I knew this was a subject I should keep my mouth shut about ... but nope, can't do it.

While reading this article I couldn't help but wonder to myself how this act could be committed in the name of Life. That's insane.

I am of an age that the enactment of Roe v Wade was a pretty huge deal for me (17 in 1973). Protecting it still is. I am as strongly Pro Choice as anyone I know. There have been 3 seperate circumstances in my life that have touched me and strengthened my resolve to protect what Roe v Wade stands for. They don't need to be discussed, they just are.

Any abortion performed at any time, anywhere is unfortunate, sad, and a horrible thing, there's no denying that. However, for anyone to begin to think that they can speak to any and every occasion and circumstance regarding the decision of abortion is ridiculous. There as many different ones as there are people. The procedure needs to be strictly monitored by law, and is. If for whatever reason the laws that are in place aren't followed, the laws need to be looked at. Individuals whose duty it is to interpret and carry out those laws need to be looked at. But, to remove any and all choice from every woman is unthinkable. Who are any of us to pretend to know the best course for anyone else? What in some eyes is a sin, may in another's be a blessing. A sad one, and unfortunate, but a blessing all the same. What man, or woman can pretend to know the best course for anyone else? The options need to remain, and the choice needs to be there.

The fact remains that this murder was committed, and a wife is without a husband, and children are without a father, all in the name of Life.

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Who are any of us to pretend to know the best course for anyone else?

Uh, let me take a stab at an answer to that question, Carole.

The potential "parent" of an aborted human being.

This not directed to you, Carole, or anyone in particular. But for anyone believing that calculating the destruction of over 50 million American men and women is somehow a constitutional "right," stop religiously buying into the catchphrases and think, think, think. If pregnancies represent nearly equal gender distribution, that means since 1973, approximately 25 million American women have died as a result of a procedure made legal to save about 3000 American women during that same time period.

I just feel the 3000 could have been saved and the a very large percentage of the 25 million, as well. That, to me, is caring about a woman's right to choose. Since 1973, 25 million U.S. women have been totally denied any rights for anything.

But then, I guess I am just an ignorant ...... . (simply fill in the blank with the learned names that have been cleverly supplied by the abortion industry and automatically foisted upon those who see uncontrolled and unrestricted abortion as dead wrong.)

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Obviously this is a subject you feel strongly about Ron. I totally respect that, and will not continue an argument that cannot, and certainly will not be won here (or anywhere probably). The right or wrong of abortion really isn't the question here anyway. But I do have one question for you, regarding your stab at an answer to mine ....

Who are any of us to pretend to know the best course for anyone else?

Uh, let me take a stab at an answer to that question, Carole.

The potential "parent" of an aborted human being.

The potential parent? Would that potential parent be that same man that incestuosly impregnated his 11 year old niece? Yeah, I knew that guy, and I've spent many a sleepless night worrying about his feelings. Not. That was one of the 3 situations that has touched my life, and I know that you and other Pro-Lifers will have an answer for me ... but you didn't see that little girl's face. We were all thankful that a choice was there for her.

One last thing ... I said before that I couldn't believe that this insane act of murder was committed in the name of life. Have you ever noticed that most the true crazies all seem to be members of that Pro-Life camp? Odd huh?

I completely understand the reasons for your feelings, I'm the mother of 4 kids. I respect not just your right to them, but you as well, and won't say anymore on the subject. It's just that sometimes a person finds that his feelings change when placed in a particular situation.

Edit: Oops, really quickly ... you made a statement about uncontrolled and unrestricted abortion. Had you read my statements you'd have seen that I said the exact opposite, Roe v Wade does not support uncontrolled and unrestricted abortion .... those are the inflamatory words that are used by those in that "other" camp.

Edited by Guest

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Would that potential parent be that same man that incestuosly impregnated his 11 year old niece? ...

One last thing ... I said before that I couldn't believe that this insane act of murder was committed in the name of life.

I earlier stated my position that in those rare cases of pregnancy through rape, incest or when the physical well being of the mother or baby are at dire risk, humane and caring help should be readily supplied. But people, let's not fool ourselves into believing that is even one tenth of the uses of abortion in America. And perhaps (as I stated in another post in this thread) the original intent of Roe was to take those exceptional abortion needs out of the dark alleys of American cities - and rightfully so - but a strong industry has emerged employing a very powerful lobby with friends in high places. The slope has become so slippery to the point that today a woman in labor demanding an abortion can be appeased. Don't think it is not so. Life is made cheaper when it is not regarded for what it is.

And as for someone who is "pro-life" condoning, justifying or prodded to commit murder because being part of that group is indicative of some moral aberration .... come on. That is a convenient name calling ploy anyone will use when a group they do not appreciate or have respect towards has a malrepresentative get out of hand. That is like the butt of the term "going postal," which lumps all mail carriers into common group of lunatics; or saying that because some have been found to be so, all homosexuals are pedophiles and therefore should not be able to adopt children; or all Muslims are terrorists (which I fear I am reading about too much today.) No, the guy who shot the doctor obviously had some real perception problems and is not representative of any caring, humane group of individuals who see the lives of babies as worth saving. Don't even try to go there with that guy.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, I am not trying to justify, enrage, inflate or demean. I am merely asking my good friends here to stop the cookie cutting and think seriously about a horrible practice that could use tweaking. It does not have to be all or nothing. But it seems it is that way for millions of unseen lives.

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This just in:

Media personality Ann Coulter appeared on Bill O'Reilly's television program this week to discuss the murder of late-term abortion provider Dr. George Tiller. Never one to shy away from controversy, Coulter offered the following ethical assessment of the crime:

"I don't really like to think of it as a murder. It was terminating Tiller in the 203rd trimester."

When pressed by O'Reilly on this statement, Coulter replied,

"I am personally opposed to shooting abortionists, but I don't want to impose my moral values on others."

Well, there ya have it. O'Reilly and Coulter. Two loud voices that do America proud. NOT! These people make me sick. I guess Rush Limbaugh wasn't available to join them that day. Pity. The holy triumvirate of ignorance and hate.

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Well, there ya have it. O'Reilly and Coulter. Two loud voices that do America proud. NOT! These people make me sick. I guess Rush Limbaugh wasn't available to join them that day. Pity. The holy triumvirate of ignorance and hate.

Don't even get me started on Coulter ..... :bow:

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