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Steel2Velvet

Iraqis died during Clinton years

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Did you not follow the link?

It is estimated some half million Iraqi children died as a result of the Clinton admin embargoes placed upon Iraq to "force" Saddam to embrace a less militant posture. There is a "60 Minutes" video clip during which Leslie Stahl confronts Madilyn Albright with this figure, with which she seems in agreement and feels it is justified.

My point is not political, but to see another side to the liberation of Iraq and what will hopefully soon be the end to the violence as democracy seats deeper into that nation. It will take a generation, at least. I have the feeling that 50 years from now, the Iraq war will be viewed in a much more positive light, as do all military confrontations of will to deliver democratic ideals, that involve the loss of life.

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I believe, Tim, the idea was the honoring of a SEATO alliance ratified by the United States and her allies in that region of the world as a ,eams to defend against a growing tide of Communist expansionism. Nothing bad about helping out an ally. The bad part was a lack of Congressional will to win that war and a lack of stated reasons to do so. In the end, it became a political tool for electioneering.

Democracy did not win there and that is the difference. After we ended our involvement there and the Communists moved in unimpeded, over 3 million SE Asians were slaughtereds in the name of regime change. But hey, at least they weren't Americans, right?

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Would the slaughter have happened had we not been there in the first place? I think there's evidence that it wouldn't have, at least not to that extent. Of course, I'm just going off what I learned in history class... :P

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Intially, the Khmer Rouge killed those with military or political connections or their relatives (which meant family members as removed as distant cousins.) Then they killed anyone who had the ability to counter their ideology through intellect, which meant business owners and the college educated. In the end they executed people for the simple reason that they wore glasses, which meant they were literate and could possibly read subversive material. Bear in mind, this was not "punishment" for being allied with Americans, this was, at that time, felt to be the most effective way to begin a new Communist state. The models being Lenin/Stalin's Soviet state and Mao's post-revolutionary China. Both those revolutions accounting for roughly 90 million deaths. Post-Castro Cuba followed the same policy of swift justice for those displaying any capitalist sympathies. Keep in mind the major tenet of communism is that the individual who thinks as an individual is a detriment to the goals of the state.

The American public did not want to learn too many details of post-war Vietnam, because we were too busy celebrating an "end" to the war. The real conflict was just beginning for those left behind ...

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Many people seem to erroneously associate capitalism with greed or over stepping one's needs, when in its basic form it is nothing other than the right of the individual to ownership of property and capital ($.) This seems to me to be the most natural system. What you grow/hunt, you get to eat or to split up with others or to bury for later - the grower's/hunter's option. It is also called the "right to self-determination." A lot of people prefer it to alternatives in which the state lays out the programs for you to follow, based on what the state feels meets your needs.

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Did you not follow the link?

It is estimated some half million Iraqi children died as a result of the Clinton admin embargoes placed upon Iraq to "force" Saddam to embrace a less militant posture. There is a "60 Minutes" video clip during which Leslie Stahl confronts Madilyn Albright with this figure, with which she seems in agreement and feels it is justified.

My point is not political, but to see another side to the liberation of Iraq and what will hopefully soon be the end to the violence as democracy seats deeper into that nation. It will take a generation, at least. I have the feeling that 50 years from now, the Iraq war will be viewed in a much more positive light, as do all military confrontations of will to deliver democratic ideals, that involve the loss of life.

... and a whole other bunch of kids died in North Korea. Therefore, we should invade them and occupy that country and waste American lives and billions of dollars in the process :beatnik:

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Intially, the Khmer Rouge killed those with military or political connections or their relatives (which meant family members as removed as distant cousins.) Then they killed anyone who had the ability to counter their ideology through intellect, which meant business owners and the college educated. In the end they executed people for the simple reason that they wore glasses, which meant they were literate and could possibly read subversive material. Bear in mind, this was not "punishment" for being allied with Americans, this was, at that time, felt to be the most effective way to begin a new Communist state. The models being Lenin/Stalin's Soviet state and Mao's post-revolutionary China. Both those revolutions accounting for roughly 90 million deaths. Post-Castro Cuba followed the same policy of swift justice for those displaying any capitalist sympathies. Keep in mind the major tenet of communism is that the individual who thinks as an individual is a detriment to the goals of the state.

The American public did not want to learn too many details of post-war Vietnam, because we were too busy celebrating an "end" to the war. The real conflict was just beginning for those left behind ...

Speaking of the Khmer Rouge, they got assistance from the US govt. back in the Vietnam War :beatnik:

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Which reminds me, part of the reason the Khmer Rouge came to power was the constant barrage of "secret" US bombings taking place for years in Cambodia. I think a shell-shocked populace is quite easy to slaughter in Tuol Sleng :beatnik:

Your intelligence agencies and a number of others got so mixed up and deep into things they couldn't understand- and still don't , in many respects ... much of the sour taste of that conflict . America's best standing back with THE mighty club saying ' don't mess with us , or our friends .Period . ' The rest of the world likes and respects that . Pick your fights well ; you have the brains and all the abilities a country could ask for . Russia is not your enemy unless you want them to be . Don't listen to Wall St. ever again .

WWII is over and other nations have grown up and are proud of themselves too -and rightly so . The perpetual 'I.O.U.' from those days is way past it's expiry date . Hey ,Britain finally paid off it's debt in 2006 . Best to approach others from the allied level rather than the unilateral one . Don't disengage , however - it's not an 'all or nothing ' proposition .

And maybe cut out the bombast for a change, such 'only in America ' ,'best /first / fastest /etc .' ... who cares ? We know you're good , and a little modesty goes a long way .

Lastly , be kind to yourselves and each other .It will make others envy you again as , in that respect , many places in the world do not know how . It's your good hearts that wins you friends , always -little else .

Regards ,

Little Brother

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No ,simply that I found it audacious that in the end result of WWII , America would still find it right and proper to stick it to her best ally - the one who, had she collapsed , would have made for a very dark 20th Century .

Well , cheque paid - she owes you nothing I guess, in that thinking .

That is an example of unnecessary bombast I hope the US can and should avoid , however .

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That's some very interesting info S2V, thanks for bringing this up.

I thought that the Iraq war was a good idea at first, Saddam was an Evil dictator and it was thought that he had WMD's, we know now those have not been found. Were they swiftly moved to an adjoining country? We don't know. The gun was not found.

We are there, this is the reality. We can not now run and quit, this would be worse than the error of going there in the first place.

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,'best /first / fastest /etc .' ... who cares ? We know you're good , and a little modesty goes a long way .

and with a new administration ready to be ushered in within a couple months' time, perhaps we can regain the respect that modesty earns... here's hoping.

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