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PaulEdwardWagemann

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Everything posted by PaulEdwardWagemann

  1. First of all, Paul Nelson = an american (and youve already established that most americans view of the SPs is wrong)... Second of all, Rollingstone = embarrassing shill for the Corporate music industries slave masters... The Ramones, and other early punk bands were not overly concerned about politics. Posing as politacl spokemen for a generation was in fact a large part of what they were against. The Sex Pistols killed that aspect of Punk by trying to come off as poltical. This may have caused a stir in the UK, but in the US their politics did not matter one iota. They were seen as a novelty, freaks who cut themselves up on stage and talked in funny accents--much more entertaining than Jackson Browne and the Eagles feel good 'sensative guy' rock that was dominating the radio waves in thelate 70s....
  2. This ought to be good. Just how did the Sex Pistols change England?
  3. BF, Just becasue most americans think something, that doesnt mean its true (Weapons of mass destructin ring a bell?) Americans for the most part are pretty ignorant in fact. The truth of the matter is that Punk in the US was already past its prime by the time the Sex Pistols came over here. As for your post about 12"--what's your point? And how does this detract from the fact that the Romones were innovaters and the SPs were immitators???
  4. Try checking the links at the beginning of this thread...
  5. So Johhny Rotten would say the Sex Pistols killed punk Rock, but you say they didnt--and exactly why should we believe you over him? Also McLaren says the Sex Pistols were fabricated, but you say they werent. Again why should we believe you over someone who was actually in the thick of it all? Last of all, you say Punk Rock is still alive?!? May I ask you to give me your defintion of punk rock and then ask you for some examples of how it is still alive?
  6. YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!! I WON!! *starts strutting about, singing Queens "we are the champions" and pumping arms in the air, before remembering to look to the heavens and give a shout out to the big man upstairs* * * *
  7. The difference between the Ramones and the Sex Pistols (well one of the differences anyway) is that the Ramones were original--authentic. The Sex Pistols were manufactured to copy what the Ramones, NY Dolls, Richard Hell, etc were already doing...The Sex pistols were part of punk as a 'pop movement'. The Ramones started out just making noise and leaving people flaberghasted. The leather jackets, the bowl-cuts, etc were all part of the fun, but also a way of expressing unity in any who opposed them (gang-mentality if you will), it wasn't about trying to be a part of a pop movement...
  8. i'll still check in from time to time, I just wont have the same expectations...
  9. Actually I wasnt insulting any one person personally. I was using the universal 'you'... You folks here seem fairly nice, I was just expecting a little more debate/arguement and not so many filppant wise cracks--not that I mind the wisecracks, in fact I enjoyed them, but that seems like the only response I was getting. I think this forum is probably the wrong place to look for the kind of discussion I was hoping for. There's other forum's that suit the kind of discussion I was hoping for better, so I'll be better off to kick around there...
  10. So what's the deal with this site? Why isn't anyone here interested in Rockism? Is this just a site for mindless Pop Culture consumers to come and make lists of their ten favorite Pop songs or gossip about a pop stars personal life? Rock music has alot to offer. It has a lot of meaning beyond the toe-tapping affect it has on corporate automatons as they slave their way through another corporate workday...If you can't dig beyond the superfical surface of the pop culture and try to really understand what is going on in this country, then I guess you deserve your fate as mindless sheep that are led about by your corporate masters...I for one, was hoping to find a little something more substancial here, but it seems obvious I have come to the wrong place... ...and I'm not talking about he CIA killed John Lennon thread I started--that was just a joke and a way to test the waters here...
  11. Remember though we are talking about Rock music. During the 60's Rock was considered the music of the counter-culture--not music for the corporte culture. Also there may have been some 'critical observation' of Rock music before Dylan and the beatles but it has had little impact on the grand narration of Rockism.
  12. Even twenty years after the Corporate take over of Rock Music, Rock remains the default option for most opinion-makers (magazines especially) and the way they talk about and view music. I point this out, because it goes to show Rock's grip on the "grand narrative" of Music. This grand narrative has been structured over the years through books, newspapers, magazines, conversations etc that all began with the critical observation of Dylan and the Beatles. From there it has evolved into an accepted wisdom and language that is commonly referred to as Rockism.
  13. The reason no-one can agree upon which music is rockist is that the term doesn't apply to music but attitudes. And the attitudes aren't fixed creeds when it comes to the music itself (eg. synthesisers are bad) but much more positional and relational eg. "Between the [x] and [y], [x] is much better because..." Which is why you can have a rockism of hip hop, a rockism of dance music etc. - at this point I'd invoke my solar system model of rockism/indieness. -- Tim Finney (tfinne...), October 4th, 2004. no two people really seem to be able to agree what the term even really means. (Someone said "as little of black music as possible" - where I've always thought rockists are excessively concerned with authenticity deriving from blues roots.) But is this even a meaningful thing to be concerned about anymore? I could maybe see the use of critiquing rockism in the 70s and 80s. Now, it seems increasingly rare that anyone has a problem, say, with drum machines or songwriting teams or dance clubs, and thinks that everyone should listen to Dylan. -- sundar subramanian (sundar_subramanian200...), October 4th, 2004. (3 trackbacks) "True rockism" can't exist. Even the most die-hard deathmetallers I know have a favorite pop song in their closet somewhere. -- Alex in NYC (vassife...), October 4th, 2004.
  14. Its a commonly used term--its mentioned in the articles I gave links to... Here's an article that deals with it: http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=5266352&showall=true or you can try this one: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=1666
  15. Well yeah, in responce to the question about a Rockism paragon, this is the way a Rockist works. For instance, do you have any moments/songs/albums/concerts/events that epitomize Rock (for you)? If you do, a Rockist would ask you why does that thing you picked epitomize Rock--and themore knowledgible you are in regards to everything dealing with rock, then the more convincing your reasoning is going to be. BTW, Rockists are generally not critics. Rockists are fans, collectors, enthusiastic, historians. They do give their opinions and they do sometimes write their opinions down, but they are most definatley NOT Rock Critics.
  16. Excellent question. Each Rockist I've ever known has their own paragons--and they are not so large in scope as to include an entire band or that band's entire career. In fact looking at an artist as subjectively as possible is a very highly regarded trait in Rockism circles. This means that you can say that Bob Dylan is a genius lyricist, but he did have a tendency to ramble a bit at times in a boring and now dated manner (for example on his album he Times they are a-changin)...Yet at the same time there are specific albums, concerts, songs, moments in time even that Rockists will defened to their death as being the pinnacle of Rock perfection. Each Rockist will probablly give you a different set of examples. It may be side two of Abbey Road, it may be Eddie Van Halen's intro into 'You Really Got Me' or it may be Sid Vicious passing out in a dirty hotel room as Nancy Spungeon bleeds to death. The great thing about Rockism is that every Rockist can have his own paragon--just as long as he can (and will) defend his reasonings for it...
  17. Have you never heard of the Stooges? Or the Dictators or the Dead Boys or the Ramones? Or even the MC5. Maybe you are in a vaccum because you are stuck in the Uk(which also explains your nationalistic loyalty to Brit Punk) but by the time the Sex Pistols jumped on the band wagon the golden age of punk was already on the downswing. By commercializing Punk, the sex Pistols basically undercut everything Punk stood for...
  18. I've been on so many message boards where I've asked people to prove to me that Rap/Hip hop of today doesn't suck. "Give me some great artists" I ask them...sometimes I get answers, listen to their recommendations and think, Jesus-this is crap. I do like a few songs by Outkast I admit, but that is the only modern hip hop act I've even mildly liked--and beleive me I've been open-minded to it, and have looked for it. I keep thinking there must be something there, if all of these people like it. But finally I've come to the conclusion that just becasue something is immensely popular doesnt mean that it has any quality. And I think rap/hip hop is just Pop music. It's easy to make and packaged by the corporate Music Industry so tht it is accessable to a wide and not so selective audiance...
  19. I really have very little interest in posuers. And I'm also not interested in musicians who have compromised their music in order to obtain pop success...
  20. If this is what Kevin is trying to illustrate through his metaphor, then I have to ask who says that being more informed about what goes into making a piece of music ONLY reveals the music's flaws? To go back to his car metaphor, it would seem to me the more you learn about the engineering and design and complexities that goes into making that car, the MORE you are going to marvel at it. Wouldn't you? The Sex Pistols IMO had a minimal effect on Rock. I don't find their music innovative. The were great at attention-whoring which I think does not really contributed anything positive to Rock music...
  21. Yeah, some genres of music don't have much purpose beyond getting ClubKittens to get up and boogie. That's just fine. But some music has an impact on soceity, on history, on the evolution of music (musical style, technique, instrumentation, etc). Certainly you can see why these songs, albums, artists, etc would be interesting (if not even important) to be study, can't you? I'm not quite understanding this metaphor you are making. You are saying that a new car is like a song or an album? Is that right? But then you get a nick in your new car? So what does that represent? How can a song or album be nicked? Are you saying the CD or the album itself gets nicked? I really don't see how your attempted metaphor is relevent at all.
  22. That's correct. But isn't it human nature to want to understand something that you think is of high quality? Just think of how music has evolved since the time of Little Richard and Buddy HOlly. If Music is going to continue to evolve there needs to be some reflection, there needs to be some honing os skills, there needs to be a consciousness of Rock culture, Rock history, Rock society. That's what Rockism is about. For the casual listener, just listening to the music is fine. If Brintey Spears moves them, then great. If Wham! or Panic! At the disco floats their boat, then gee-whiz willigans golly gee, that's great. But for the more discerning music fan, its fun to go beyond just the surface of a pop song that is heard on the radio and get to understand the music in a broader sense. That's where Rockism comes in to play.
  23. It is the most important part, but being informed can really enhance your listening experience.
  24. Listening is one of the most important parts of Rockism, but the more informed you are about techniques, influences, etc the more you are going to understand what you are listening to.
  25. I see what you mean. One of the big criticisms of Rockism is exactly what you brought up. People think Rockism is telling them how Rock (or music in general) should be made as if Rockism is a theory on how to make quality music. But IMO what Rockism really is is just a method of putting music that has already been made into context and evaluating it on those merits.
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